Trouble Between Adult Siblings

Parent Q&A

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Eviction of sibling in their 50s - what to do
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Sep 30, 2023

I have a sibling in his 50s who is being evicted from his apartment for not paying rent for a couple of years - however the inability to afford his place is a 20 year problem. This sibling had a serious brain injury years ago and although he can pass for a functioning person, he isn't and can't hold a job and has serious anger issues. He always thinks his next get rich quick scheme will solve the problem. I will not give him any money because it's pointless. Also he caused huge financial injury to my elderly parents and finally got into legal trouble because of it.

But I feel for him. We had a rough childhood behind that middle-class exterior as many do, and I know it wasn't easy for him (nor any of us). But he has in the past been vicious to me. He is untrustworthy, unstable and self-destructive and slightly paranoid.

I wonder what can be done to help someone in his situation. From what I understand, once the eviction is on his record, he won't be able to rent elsewhere. I doubt he has good credit history anyway as he hasn't regularly worked. I've been toying if I should offer to co-sign for a new lease, or even buy him a small senior condo up in Oregon where they are more affordable (I found one less than 100k with low hoa). I have a bit of extra money because I live very carefully. But I also know he has never appreciated any help I have given him, he promises to pay back loans and never does, he can become threatening and vicious. He just as likely will say he doesn't like the area and move out leaving me with the condo. Nor does he acknowledge the financial destruction he caused my parents.

As I write this I realize if I help I'll end up disappointed as always. I know he has to face these problems now himself. But I also realize the housing market is so tight now and with an eviction, I don't know if he'll ever have a stable place to live again.

He's begging me to help him yet again and this time he really will become homeless. Honestly I feel bad. Any ideas or places that may be able to help him?

Sep 30, 2023

I feel like I could have written this message about my younger sibling who was facing eviction earlier this spring. I actually chose to extract myself from the situation, and have no idea what ended up happening or where my sibling landed. I could find out, but for my own mental health I have not followed up. (We are new parents and already overwhelmed with our day to day life.) It is extremely painful knowing that any help I give will not be "enough." I really feel for you and hope you find a more satisfactory solution than I did, or at least one that you can live with.

Oct 4, 2023

Supportive housing? Our family bought a condo for a relative with mental health problems. It was a good investment in terms of their stability. If you think your relative could stay in the condo without doing something that would get him evicted that sounds like a good idea. Maybe talk to a social worker? Jewish Family Services has some -- I know about it for elder relatives, but maybe they can also help with a relative with a mental health problem.

Oct 4, 2023

You should talk to a lawyer about how best to handle this. Housing issues are so complicated, especially combined w/ disability or age!

Oct 4, 2023

This is difficult I am certain. Given what you wrote I wouldn’t co sign anything. You could either buy him something as you say in Oregon or agree to pay his rent somewhere such as in a small studio.m so you are in control of your own finances and credit. It seems you would not feel right leaving him to homelessness. You also seem to know though he is an adult he has limitations given his brain injury. Expecting him to make it on his own seems unrealistic. If you help you have to be resigned that he may not show the appreciation you want and just know you are doing the compassionate and morally right thing

Oct 4, 2023

I'm sorry you're going through this, and I know how you feel! For what it's worth, I faced a somewhat similar situation with a family member. He just had never taken any financial responsibility, and then was almost homeless. I know you didn't ask for help with your own feelings, but I wanted to put this out there: You're right -- at the end of the day, he is at least somewhat responsible for his situation (brain injury notwithstanding), and even if in theory he's not -- that doesn't mean you "have to" relate to him in ways that would hurt you. I think if you want to help it would be best for you to do that with a crystal-clear understanding and acceptance of the fact that he won't respond in a way that is genuinely respectful and loving. Quite the opposite, it sounds like. But if you expect absolutely nothing in return, it can make giving a little easier. In my situation, I had to come to terms with the fact that if I rescued my family member, it would mean serious hardship for me, and if I watched him become homeless, that would be extremely painful -- but there would be pain either way, and I'd rather have the pain of watching someone fall vs the pain of carrying someone who was never really willing to carry himself. Something else that helped in my case was the insight that I COULD help, even if only a little. I couldn't rescue anyone, but I could still offer some help, at a level that didn't hurt me. I know it's hard, though. It really is painful. I expect you'll get some good suggestions for things that could help him, and I hope he seeks that help!

Oct 4, 2023

I'm sorry you're in this situation. I don't have direct experience with it but I follow the good work of Shelter Inc. and from reading their newsletter you might start by calling 211. "'211' is a county-based agency in more than 200 counties across the country that serves as a point of entry for services such as homelessness. Once a person engages with 211, they are referred to the county’s Coordinated Entry System that triages and prioritizes the unhoused and at-risk of becoming unhoused for access to housing and homeless services. This is the primary referral point through which participants are referred to enter our programs."

Oct 4, 2023

Well, ion he has a brain injury that is a medical condition which explains the paranoia and anger,. It's tuff! he'll likely never be grateful, or show it at least, but... I would help him as much as you can.... not expecting anything in return,.

Oct 5, 2023

I'm so sorry you are in the middle of such a difficult situation. It sounds like it's been going on for a long time, and is not likely to change without some impetus to change.

I am not a mental health professional, but I have lived experience with a family member with mental health issues. I wonder if your sibling is living with undiagnosed mental health problems. If you'd like to explore that potential, I recommend you connect with your local NAMI chapter. NAMI can provide support for you, as you navigate the situation and explore best ways to support your sibling, as well as your sibling. The first hurdle may be his willingness to even consider getting assessed and help. Also look into what the Health and Human Services and Housing departments of the county your sibling lives in offers. His local HHS may have programs to support his needs, including support in addressing his housing crisis.

If your sibling does have an undiagnosed mental health problem, and receives a diagnosis, he may be eligible for government support at the local, state, and federal level.

Even as you sound worn out by this, I sense that you are loving and compassionate. You can love him and support him without his needs negatively impacting you and the quality of your life. I wish you much support in this journey.

Oct 5, 2023
Help for an irresponsible adult sibling who I'm responsible for
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May 23, 2023

I'm seeking advice and sources of help for an odd situation. I am trustee for an adult sibling's inheritance. We use a special credit card (called Truelink credit card - and I would highly recommend it for anyone who wants to provide money to someone you must monitor or protect). This allows me to ultimately be in charge but for them to use as they wish so that they can feel independent.

My main job is to make sure that this money lasts their life expectancy. Based on that and their expenses we came up with a budget. The budget also shows how much they can spend on non-essential "wants."

The problem is that they are over-spending by a significant amount (10x to 20x as much). I can at any time just limit how much they spend by placing limits in this credit card but this is a sore issue with them and they see themselves as independent even tho they have never been that and have a long history of over spending which my parents always bailed them out. This is not new behavior at all.

I've tried various ways to encourage them to understand their spending limits, that at this rate the money will be gone in a few years and not last their life-time but it doesn't make a difference, they just keep at it buying useless stuff (and a hoarder too).

Before I just place limits, I wondered if there are any programs, groups or ideas of how to get a middle-aged person to take some responsibility in their lives?

Or for them to understand that spending huge amounts (several thousand) each month on non-essentials is NOT okay? They see any limit as unfair, as a hardship, and I can't get them to understand that FEW people can spend that kind of money on non-essentials. They actually feel sorry for themselves when limited as if everyone else can spend that kind of money and not them.

Spending isn't the only problem, just overall failure to manage their lives with tons of excuses as to why that is but as a sibling, I don't want to play the role of the parent as frankly I've dealt with these issues of theirs enough in my life but as trustee, I'll know I'll just have to clamp down in the next month.

Any ideas at all would be appreciated - how they may be able to finally see their behavior, or recognize that following a budget isn't a hardship and everyone has to, or how they can become more responsible. Because spending is just one issue, they won't take responsiblility of much of their life making me feel like their personal assistant to make sure they have things like car insurance etc.

They basically function as a cranky 13-year old. Honestly I really hate it all and am beginning to resent them as I have my own family to take care of.

And they do see a psychologist who basically does what everyone has done, believes this sibling's sob story and why everything is everyone else's fault but their own. No one has ever held this sibling accountable and I see now that I too am falling into that trap but I just don't want to be my sibling's parent. I'd like an outside source too to support me.

May 23, 2023

I really understand what you are going through and I sympathize. I'm in a similar situation except my sibling is retirement age and there is no trust fund. My husband and I are his safety net. He lives very cheaply, but in an expensive area that he refuses to leave, so his food and shelter are more costly. He thinks of himself as an entrepreneur. He is easily tricked by scammers and cannot be dissuaded that the nice young man from Nigeria does sincerely want to start a business venture with him, and the pretty lady on the internet really does want to marry him! Any money he's ever managed to accumulate over the years has vanished into crazy schemes, and he's barely worked enough in his lifetime to be covered under social security. But thank god he does barely qualify, and thank god for food stamps and California Medi-Cal!  I spent years trying to reason with my brother until I finally realized that he will always be the way he has always been. So now my job as his sister is to make sure he has food and shelter and medical care. But I don't engage with him beyond that - otherwise I get pulled into Crazyland and it's a no-win for everybody.

My advice: Your parents designated you as the trustee for a reason. Your sibling is very fortunate to have a lifetime income and someone to manage it for them who cares about them. You are never going to be able to convince your sibling to be more sensible with money, so just give up on that. Your sibling is an adult so you also can't dictate how they spend their money. But you can and you should limit how much they get each month. That's your job as trustee. Tell your sibling what the monthly limit is, and then repeat like a broken record. "I'm so sorry, but that's all there is." Don't make any suggestions and don't give any advice unless they ask. They might moan and groan and call you names, but eventually they will get the idea. Just like toddlers do. And teenagers.

All the best and feel free to message me if you want some peer support!

May 23, 2023

It sounds to me like you should resign as trustee. The trust should have some procedures laid out for what happens next. Maybe you can build a new relationship with your sibling if you're not holding the purse strings, or maybe you are ready to cut all ties. Bottom line, your parents are gone and you don't need to let them dictate this role to you anymore.

May 23, 2023

I really feel for you - this is a very rough situation. I have two ideas. The first is to seek a family therapist who could work with the two of you together. In my experience, many therapists spend a lot of time validating their clients' feelings to build trust in the therapeutic relationship and not much time challenging their clients to change their self-destructive thought patterns. A family therapist's role is to be a mediator and to help resolve conflicts between family members, so this might be a much better fit if your sibling is open to it. My second idea is to find a professional fiduciary to manage the trust and resign as the trustee. That way you don't have to be the bad guy. Good luck.

May 24, 2023

This is really hard. I agree with the author that you probably can't change your sibling and if you do plan to continue in this capacity, keep your emotional distance, take care of yourself, and just do the job of trustee. You may want to consult with a lawyer to confirm this, but it's probably unlikely that you could get them conserved, which would really limit the damage they can do to themselves as far as their finances. Otherwise, perhaps they can be declared legally incompetent such that you could have more control over the financial decisions. (Of course this will further strain the relationship, but that seems out of your control anyhow.) My guess is you'd be worried that if you do just give them a limit, they won't end up spending the $$ on necessities and that would be hard to watch. I'm not a mental health expert, but I can't imagine your sibling doesn't have a mental health issue so these bad choices are probably not really even in their control. (I have known people like this.) Hopefully responses here are validating your experience - you're not alone! (And indeed, it's frustrating when other professionals, like the therapist, fail at their role.)

May 24, 2023

Set the limits ASAP on the card and in the meantime you can look for services. When they run out of money you might feel obligated to help them financially. Better to be tough now than deal with the aftermath later.

May 24, 2023

My heart goes out to you.

We are setting up our estate plan for our two adult children. In 40 years, their situation could resemble yours,

Families with a functioning sibling and a dysfunctional sibling have an awful choice with awful tradeoffs: Does the functional sibling bear the responsibility of monitoring the other,, or do you hire a fiduciary to handle it?

There is no easy answer, but you are presumably free to choose.

If a licensed professional fiduciary is an individual, they generally charge about 1% of the value of the estate per year. If it is a corporation, 2% per year. There are tradeoffs with which type one selects.

Here is the link to the state agency that regulates professional fiduciaries: https://www.fiduciary.ca.gov

In your situation, it is clear that you are bearing a burden that comes with few, if any, rewards. Don't beat yourself up if you can't do a perfect job at it.

Reading about your experience helps inform what we will do about our own estate planning.

May 24, 2023

Hi,

I don't have any answers for you, but I am in a very similar situation. It is beyond frustrating and exhausting. I feel as though I have tried everything and have even threatened to resign as trustee, but this didn't work since it's too expensive to hire someone for this role.

I wish I had some good advice. I will be following this post closely to see if there are any suggestions.

Feel free to message me if you need support!

May 24, 2023

Has your sibling agreed that the budget makes sense? Is your sibling simply irresponsible -- that is, not impaired in some way that makes being responsible too challenging? Is this situation causing you enough stress that it's affecting your emotional or physical health and your interactions with your spouse and kids?

I came from a difficult family, and eventually realized that I have to keep my relationship with them tightly bounded. Fortunately they are self-supporting, so I can. You are stuck with money and survival getting mixed up with family emotions and loyalty, which sounds awful.

My first thought is that you should find someone onto whom you can offload the problem. This could be a relative, or better a neutral fiduciary who can enforce limits without emotional entanglement.

Alternatively, you might try a natural-consequences, tough-love approach by doling the money out in very small increments. I believe TrueLink is a debit card, so one can't spend more than is loaded on the card. This which means you can arrange for your sibling to have a day-by-day experience of running out of money. For example, you could load the card with one month's worth of budgeted money, and after that add one day's worth of money every day. Your sibling will likely blow through the money and run out, and then have nothing to spend. This will mean a lot of unpleasant situations where the card gets turned down for lack of funds. A hard lesson but it might work.

Let your sibling know before you start this, but try to frame it as something you're doing for convenience and efficiency. No doubt there will be hell to pay while the lesson plays out, so get yourself a therapist or some other support before you start.

If your sibling really cannot manage, then maybe you can arrange for vital expenses like rent and insurance to go through automatic bill-pay. Again, you can frame this as being for your convenience. Remaining budgeted money can go on the card incrementally. When your sibling demands more money, say, "I'm sorry, but that's just not in the budget," and say it over and over again, no other argument or statement is needed.

Your sibling likely will see you as cold, heartless, and controlling. Your parents obviously didn't trust your sibling with money, and they put you in position as parent. You will be better off engaging with your sibling as little as possible over money, which may curtail your relationship in general. Remember that your primary emotional responsibility is to the family you made, not your family of origin.

May 24, 2023

It's entirely possible that your sibling is simply incapable of responsibly setting limits and sticking to them. It sounds like they generally haven't figured out how to function in the real world. If they're past their 20s, and if they haven't figured it out yet they probably never will. Your life will be much easier by accepting that, and giving up any emotional investment in trying to make it happen. Either accept that your role is to be bad cop and set limits, or go with the suggestion below to relinquish the role of trustee to someone else. It's a crappy situation to be in. You can make it less crappy by accepting the crappy possible actions you can take, and not hoping for an action (getting them to see the error of their ways) that isn't going to happen.

May 24, 2023

I get the problem, completely! My adult child has several challenges, special needs...AND he doesn't mind his money. If your sibling is seeing a therapist, did you know you can send that professional a personal letter, letting him/her know your view of things. It doesn't matter that you don't have legal rights to consult with the therapist...it would be a letter of concern and an offering of your point of view. -- You can even explain it as such.-- Then we have to let it go & maybe both of them will end up on the streets. An awful thought which haunts me from time to time. I love my son but because I have another son and an unwell son, setting up boundaries--not walls-- are important.    (In my case, the therapist was very appreciative.) All the best

May 24, 2023

Put the monthly limit in place. There's really nothing else you can do. You're not going to get your sibling to change their behavior otherwise. A class or group won't help because the sibling currently does not perceive a problem with their behavior. I'm assuming that you are the financial trustee and are not the legal guardian of your sibling. So if your job is simply to ensure the money lasts, you've done all you can do. Limit the monthly amount available, and just reiterate the limit and remind them of the budget. Otherwise try not to engage with all the complaining and other problems. If your sibling ever asks for help with budgeting or asks for help with how to become more responsible, then you could seek other ways to help. I'm sorry you're dealing with this.

May 24, 2023

Ugh, I'm so sorry. My mom is in the same boat with my aunt, who has been unable to work for most of her life due to mental health issues. There is a small trust but in practice my parents have had to give her a lot of extra money to avoid her becoming homeless. They have set up a reverse mortgage on her house -- not sure if that is an option here. My aunt also gets SSDI funds. And they've encouraged her to see a social worker focused on the elderly but she has resisted. It's unpleasant and an ongoing source of stress. And sadly, with my own mom having a terminal diagnosis, it looks like this sister will likely outlive all three of her (wonderful) siblings.

May 24, 2023

Hi there, so sorry you are dealing with that situation. It sounds exhausting and sad. I totally agree with the advice from "GO" that you should give up on trying to help your sibling see reason. The only thing you can do, and what you must do, is to put in place a monthly spending limit. You have to set a boundary and stick with it - easier said than done. I would recommend trying to find a good therapist for yourself, to help support you as you hold firm on the boundary, and to help of cope with the pain of the situation. Best wishes to you.

May 24, 2023

I agree with the first response that you should remain as trustee. Don't resign as trustee. Your parents knew you had the ability to fill that role. You are fortunate that assets exist to take care of your sibling for life, otherwise you might have been stuck with supporting them down the road. I am not familiar with the Truelink credit card, but I wonder if transferring the agreed-upon, budgeted amount of money each month into sibling's account would be easier for you? Maybe that way they will start to understand that is all the money they will have to spend each month. If you are responsible for paying some of their bills from the trust account, then set up auto pay. I sympathize with your situation. I'm beginning to realize that people with serious spending problems are not likely to change. It's like an addiction that is difficult to overcome. I have a relative in her 30s now who has always been a compulsive shopper. In the past dozen or so years, she has maxed out and burned through credit cards, avoids paying rent at times because it's more fun to use any income to buy designer clothes, shoes, handbags and go out to fancy bars and restaurants, doesn't buy insurance for or register her car, doesn't file tax returns, doesn't have any savings... the list goes on. She lies and always has an excuse, and her parents believe her and continually bail her out. Like your sibling, she has never had to be accountable. She has destroyed family relationships with her reckless behavior. You are very fortunate that there is income for your sibling. Does sibling have a partner/significant other who could take some of the pressure off you of dealing with day-to-day chores of life? It sounds like that's the hard part for you, for sure. Maybe think about consulting a therapist for yourself. Sibling is acting like a toddler. Stand firm with your budget, and try to not get drawn in to their drama. Best of luck.

May 24, 2023

I wish I had an answer for you - I'm no lawyer, but it seems to me you might be able to resign your position and assign it to someone else who is outside of the family? Could you pay a lawyer to do the same for a minimal amount of money? That way there's no blame on you and their accountability is monitored by a 3rd party. Wishing you the best!

May 24, 2023

I have a friend who works as a professional fiduciary, and from what she has told me about her work she provides the kinds of supervision it sounds like you want out of. I'm not recommending her specifically (I haven't used her services) but here's a website for Professional Fiduciaries Bureau (https://www.fiduciary.ca.gov/about_us/index.shtml#:~:text=Professional%….). They can handle things like bill paying and the like. This might be an option for you instead of putting yourself in the role of bad guy.

If you can't outsource, my sense is that education and resources aren't going to change your sibling's money behavior so there's no point in delaying instituting a spending limit.

May 24, 2023

Oh, how I can relate! We should start a support group. My sibling is almost 60 and acts like he’s 18. My parents did not set up a trust. Great that your parents did that. I highly recommend that you set the monthly limit to what you think is appropriate for their “pocket money” plus set aside a bit extra annually for special things. All basic necessities should be on autopay, but you should send him the invoices every month (and if you can stand it, have a coffee and sit with him for 15 mins a month and very simply go over the autopay expenses, so he can see that the trust is actually giving him a lot of money to have a roof over his. You cannot change his behavior unless he wants to. My sibling kind of wants to and still isn’t able to. There is a lot of mental illness here. I say that not to excuse the behavior, but to acknowledge that it’s difficult to change. If you are like me and do want to honor your parents’ wishes and assure your sibling isn’t homeless, then you also need to do it in a way that is sustainable AND is emotionally healthy for you. I’m striving and struggling for the same. Good luck!

May 25, 2023

I think you should resign as trustee and appoint a professional. This could either be a “professional fiduciary” (an individual) or a corporate trustee (like a bank or trust company). They have policies and systems and are used to saying no and following the terms of the document. Corporate trustees are great options in situations like this - you don’t want this kind of stress following you for the rest of your life and it sounds like your sibling needs firm boundaries that you’re (understandably) having a hard time maintaining.

May 25, 2023

Switch to cash or debit card. Make it a weekly allowance. If they want to spend on non-essentials, they can but they need to save it up from the weekly allowance.

Only problem is if they find a way to open a credit card and abuse the system. Then you have to pay off credit card on top of the cash they spent.

May 25, 2023

This sounds like a very difficult position for both you and your sibling to be in. You can’t force your sibling to take a course and learn the skills they should have as an adult. The picture you’ve painted shows they don’t want to/cannot learn to be responsible. Like you said, you have your own family to take care of. I think you should remove yourself as trustee. Best of luck, this sounds very hard.

May 26, 2023

Hi,

Sorry that you're in this stressful situation. I agree with the other writer, that you should give him a monthly allotment, basically autopilot, and that he has be budget it or come up with ways to supplement it. Stand strong. It's not a fight or negotiation, it just is. Also, I hope he can talk to a straight up financial coach. I used to watch Gail Vox Oxlade "Princess", she'll give you some gumption.

Good luck

May 26, 2023

Reading these thoughtful responses, it occurred to me that a daily limit might be more functional than a monthly limit on the Truelink card. A person that does not have the capacity, working memory, or executive function to manage their money may need to actually run out per day to feel that limit and alter their behavior. I realize a daily limit seems more controlling and may stress your relationship further but it's just a thought. I wonder if it would actually result in LESS friction than having the sibling run out of money half way through the month and not be able to provide their own basic needs. I also like the idea of alerting the therapist to the money situation so that the therapist can understand what's at stake and can keep your sibling on task.

May 26, 2023

similar circumstances. have you considered hiring a professional fiduciary to take over your duties. you can still call the shots and retract it if you want, but it puts another person between your and sibling letting them be the 'bad guy'. sure it will cost something, but at the rate your sibling is going, that might be the better deal. best of luck. signed, also the adult in the family

May 27, 2023
Reconnecting with estranged sibling
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Aug 31, 2022

Hello, I am looking for ways to reconnect with my brother who is older than me by 3 years. We are both in our 40s. We have been estranged since he cut off connection after the birth of my first kid, so 5 years ago. At the time that we were trying to conceive, he and his wife were also trying (both of us couples were doing IVF). I was successful in the IVF, but they were not. I also moved closer to my parents so that they could have a relationship with their grandchild. At that time, many feelings surfaced on his part about how fiscally irresponsible I was to move to a HCOL area and not be in a lucrative career and how I was using our parents for childcare. He also chewed me out for endangering my parents when I took my family to visit them in 2021, when people were still very much in their COVID bubbles (that was the first time he talked to me in 3 years after the birth). Now I have 2 kids, and he has never met them. Throughout all of this, I would send emails to acknowledge his birthday and career milestones, and with the passing of my brother's father-in-law, I also sent condolences and a card. I would never get a response. To some degree, I made peace with this and also, I never doubted that he used his very stressful high-powered job to simply not deal with our relationship. However, this summer, he finally emailed me, saying that he would be in town last minute and if he could visit. Unfortunately, our family was not in town, so I had to decline but emphasized that we should shoot for next time that he is in the area. My quandary now is this: I know he will be in town in CA this year again because my parents told me. I would like to email him and suggest meeting in way that is the least awkward, one where it would not make him uncomfortable to meet my kids (potentially his wife could be there too). Also, my partner was also extremely hurt by the silent treatment and probably needs more 'explanation' on my brother's part than I do (I am practically willing to sweep things under the rug because I want my kids to know their only uncle on my side). I just don't think that an explicit reconciliation is possible, esp. at first meeting, given that we may only have this one chance to 'get it right'. I don't know what I mean by 'get it right', but I don't want to be cut off again. I thought of suggesting a meeting all together with my parents (although they live several hours away) so that the emphasis is less on getting to know my kids and more about reuniting. It would nice to be able to suggest Thanksgiving, but given that we haven't spoken in so long, I think that just might be really awkward, plus he and his wife are used to jetsetting around the holidays. Thoughts on how to navigate this?

Aug 31, 2022

I had a falling out with my best friend. She got divorced and she cut off any one who remained friends with her ex but we had met her through him years earlier and wouldn’t defriend him. We felt very unfairly treated by it all. I kept reaching out to her but she ignored me even when I told her one of my parents had passed away. We eventually reconciled when my husband saw she was in town and arranged to meet up. We had coffee together and chatted. But it was really hard to keep hurt feelings under wraps. We ended up briefly talking about the conflict at the end and from there we agreed to reconnect and we ended up closer than ever. But that first meeting was really hard and emotional. I suggest going to a neutral place and keeping the first meeting short. Then build on that hopefully positive experience later. I hope it all goes well for you.

Sep 3, 2022

It sounds like a therapist could be helpful to explore your feelings around this situation and possible ways to connect with your brother. You might want to be prepared for your brother to bring up issues from the past (maybe not at the first meeting but after reconnecting). It could be helpful to explore what you might say.

Sep 3, 2022

I have to tell you, my first thought, upon reading this, is “why is this woman tiptoeing around that sulking narcissist?” Perhaps there is something about your family dynamic I’m not getting, but if he really severed ties because your IVF was successful and his was not then…wow. Also, your finances are NOT his business. Nickel and diming your parents’ time when you have kids and he doesn’t seems like next level narcissism. Again, I may not fully understand the situation, but, at face value, your children may not be missing much. Perhaps it’s time to consider your own emotional investment in this relationship.

Sep 3, 2022

Without knowing the backstory and temperaments of the individuals involved, from what you have written it seems that a low-drama reintroduction might be the best first step. In other words, just hanging out with the whole family, with no structured meetings might be best.

While you describe this as an estrangement, all the parties have expressed willingness to continue some sort of relationship.

It must be very hard for this couple who have not succeeded at IVF. But they will have to "get over it" if that is the hand that fate has dealt them. Being an uncle and aunt is a good thing.

However, while you may be willing to forgive your brother for lashing out and judging you while he was upset about the unsuccessful IVF attempts, IMHO you should not continue to tolerate his unreasonable complaints about matters that are none of his business, such as your choice of places to live or how much time your parents spend with the grandchildren.

For the reintroduction process, you could try just ignoring him if he goes off in this vein, and hope that he gives up on it. Since they live far away, having a conflict-resolution pow-wow may be avoidable - unless you can reasonably predict that all the parties would benefit from "clearing the air".

Thanksgiving holidays are notoriously emotionally loaded, and if air travel in bad weather is involved, that might not be an ideal setting for rebuilding a positive relationship.

Sep 3, 2022

As someone who is co-estranged from family members (mom and sister), I would suggest reaching out and accepting your relationship with the sole focus being for your kids. Granted, your post is different in that it is him estranged from you (not that you both are choosing to not have a relationship which is more my case). The options it appears you have are a) see if he can share why he feels what he does (and for you to be prepared for anything and have to accept those things he shares), b) work on yourself alone or with a therapist to accept you cannot change a person or why they choose what they do, or c) push the relationship with the intent primarily for your kids. I have chosen options b and c for my own life. I have the kids call and Facetime. I send pictures and basic updates via phone or email. When in person, I arrange time for my kids to spend time with their grandma and I recently saw my sister (for my kids' sake) when she was in town after 8 years of not having seen or really spoken to her (my kids had but not me). It does cause me emotional depletion when I'm in situations like this "why can't things be 'normal'" but it's the best option for me while maintaining the relationship with their grandma / aunt that is important to me/them. Good luck.

Sep 7, 2022

I agree that your brother has a lot of issues to work out, but I am more sympathetic to him than other commentators. It sounds to me that he's experiencing an unbundling of his family unit - you and your parents are now focused on your children and your lives, and he's not part of it for no fault of his. In the meantime, he has to navigate his relationship with his wife, and come to terms with the idea that he is not going to have kids. That's a lot; meeting your kids would not be on my list of priorities either. I believe that you should meet him somewhere neutral (coffee shop, restaurant) for a meeting of the two of you, and work on the past that unites you. Just arrange for quick meetings, and take it from there. I think you're at least a few meetings away from him meeting your kids. I also think that your parents have a role to play here. Have they been to see him - just him and his wife, or even just him - without you being around? They should arrange trips and time to spend together with him, and you should encourage them by hiring alternative childcare while they're away. Their focus on your kids might seem to him like he is being penalized - his parents take away time from him to give it to someone else, at a moment that perhaps he needs them most.

Sep 7, 2022

I’m wondering if maybe he feels resentment in connection to your ability to conceive when it sounds like he and his wife were unable to do so right around the same time. If so, it could be helpful to start by just acknowledging those feelings, if they are present at all (and if he’s even conscious of them) and validating them. Of course it’s no “fault” on your part but I imagine he may have experienced some negative feelings toward you without having the words to talk about it in a constructive way. Even just saying something like “I have really missed you and remember that we stopped talking right around that time. I can imagine that you might have felt really angry or sad during a time that felt happy for us and maybe that was too much for us both to try to overcome in the moment. But I want to try to do that with you now if you’re willing and able.” I could totally be off base so take it with a grain of salt but I find it’s always helpful to start with validation!

Sep 7, 2022
My sister is in a romance scam-what to do?
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Jan 19, 2022

Hello wise BPN parents! I’d appreciate advice on a tricky situation; I think my sister is involved in a romance scam. Her 20+ yearlong marriage recently ended and she met a man from an online dating site. They have not met in-person. Within 3 days, he said she was “the One” and deleted his profile; he sent her flowers with a love note to her house, sends long romantic texts, and calls her “Wife”. She said she’s “so in love”, is planning for her name change and for him to move in; she says he is “God’s gift” and listed “Godly signs” e.g. her doctors are taller than 6 feet and so is this man, which means God sent him to her. I expressed my alarm at how rapid and weirdly intense this romance was, especially as the way she is acting is counter to how she typically is-cautious, rational, in control. She dismissed my doubts, as she has “complete faith in God”. I am concerned for her mental stability, her finances and the welfare of my elderly and impaired mother (my sister manages our mother’s finances). She lives across the country and I haven’t seen her in years due to the pandemic. What can I do? Thank you for any advice!

Jan 19, 2022

I am so sorry. For your sister, maybe you can find some on-line support groups for recently divorced people. When I divorced it was awful and disorienting, and in retrospect I wish I had joined a divorce Facebook group or in-person group at the beginning of the process. It sounds like she needs more help than that, if there is anyone she'll listen to (kids? clergy?), maybe they can talk to her.

Jan 21, 2022

That does sound extremely concerning but you will need to tread carefully. If it were me I would immediately fly to see your sister and just spend some time one on one with her. If she is religious, get her pastor, rabbi, etc involved as another caring friend. Ask to meet her new guy and assess for yourself. Invite him to spend time with both of you. I would also contact an attorney and figure out what your exposure is re your mother's finances, and whether you can at least protect those assets. But mainly - I'd jump way back into your sister's life and get to know her again.

Jan 26, 2022

Your comment that your sister manages your mother's finances raises red flags for me. I'm not sure what you can do to protect your sister from a possible scam. There are things you can do to protect your mother. Does your sister have a power of attorney or is she just informally paying bills? Are you a signatory on your mother's bank and/or investment accounts? Is your sister? Does your mother have significant assets? How is your relationship with your mother? Will she listen to you if you express concerns to her? Does she have her own attorney in her state? If I were you, I would consult an attorney here who might be able to get you started and/or refer you to someone in your mother's area. You are wise to be thinking about this. [Moderator: Please forward to OP if possible. Thank you.]

Jan 26, 2022

A friend was in a romance scam. Her kids did an image search and found that the picture of the guy was a generic photo, not who he purported. If you have his name and picture (maybe also phone number and email), a deep dive into some searching might turn up some info, including a history of scams.

Jan 26, 2022

I don't have much experience with this situation from a family perspective, but I do work at a bank where cases of romance scams come my way. The only advice I have is from a financial perspective, which is to please make sure your online credentials and private information (social security, passwords, etc.) are secured. Since you mention that your sister manages your mom's finances, maybe there is a way where you can also have some kind of joint control over that. If you have expressed your alarm already, maybe you can couch this as wanting to alleviate your own fears and that you would just feel better if both of you co-managed your mom's finances. Also, if she has not already decided to withhold information from you about this romance, try to suss out if this person has asked her to make any transfers or deposit anything. If so, then this is definitely a red flag, and you can always contact the bank for to upgrade your alerts and notifications, have them keep an eye out for suspicious transactions, etc. I think that if your gut is telling you something and you know that you don't have a lot of control over the situation, you should do whatever you can to protect you and your family's financial wellbeing at the very least. Good luck!

Jan 26, 2022

Sounds like it could be catfishing... I would do some research in that area. If your spidey sense and instincts are telling you something is wrong or too good to be true they are usually right! There is an show all about this - https://www.mtv.com/shows/catfish-the-tv-show

Good luck!

Jan 26, 2022

I think you are right to worry. (Admittedly, I do watch a lot of Dateline). I’d hire a Private Investigator to check him out, to at least see if there’s a pattern. Maybe one of her tall doctors can talk to her, if you happen to know any of them? Or perhaps you know a friend of hers who is in her area, and could see how things are going / also talk to her. Best of luck.

Jan 26, 2022

Get curious about your new brother-in-law

Jan 26, 2022

This sounds like a terrible situation. How difficult it must be for you.

What you describe is highly narcissistic behavior, whether an intentional scam or not. The Complex Post-Traumatic Stress Foundation has a series of blogposts about narcissistic behavior that may be informative. Here's a link to one of them.

Your sister sounds like she is involved in a formal religion. Would she be open to meeting with a faith-based counselor?

Jan 26, 2022

I have a good friend who narrowly escaped two romance scams. In both cases she met the men on Christian sites. In both cases the mate sent very romantic messages for over a month and then asked her to RECEIVE (not pay) money because of plausible-sounding logistical problems in their lives. The first one became insistent and rude when she refused, tipping her off. The second one cleverly seemed willing to drop the first request when she said she wasn’t comfortable receiving the money, but soon came up with a different one that still involved her receiving money. So my advice is to tell your sister to be wary not only of paying money but also of *receiving* it. Sooner or later this person will tip his hand and she can see the scam. It’s so sad that these people are preying on people in Christian matchmaking sites. They even use Bible verses to persuade their targets.

Jan 26, 2022

My sister was my mom's caretaker before she died. My sister had a 'boyfriend' who broke it off with her and then magically fell back in love and married her just after my mom passed and she inherited my mom's house (valued at over 1M). Now he is 'retired' (like at 50) while she works to support him and his loser (adult -always in trouble with the law) kids. We warned her, and now have 0 relationship. These scammers are out there and they are real (tell her to watch Netflix 'Tinder Swindler'). I agree with the suggestion you fly out and connect with her right away. Also, PLEASE get a lawyer involved! My sister did not have control of my mom's finances while she was alive, but my mom did not have a will. We siblings did not contest my sister getting the house because we were all partnered/married and had some financial stability. In retrospect, the guy stole what should have been equally divided and there's not a thing we can do about it - a cautionary tale!

Feb 21, 2022
Oakland/Berkeley therapist for family issue
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Aug 27, 2021

I have a sister who has had psychiatric issues for several years. She is employed and lives alone on the East Coast. For several years, I have been her sole family support system as she does not get along with our other sister and our brother passed away. Recently, she developed some very strange paranoid beliefs about me and began sending me long, angry text and email messages accusing me of thinking that she is evil. These messages increased in intensity to the point where they were frightening and I blocked her. Now, I feel afraid that something bad will happen to her and that she has no one to turn to. She has some physical disabilities. I am hoping to find a therapist who could help me sort out my feelings about the situation and to come up with practical options for trying to find help for my sister when she is in this frame of mind.

If anyone can recommend a therapist in Oakland or Berkeley who can help with this I would appreciate it.

Aug 27, 2021

I would recommend Dr. Carrie Thaler. She is an amazingly insightful therapist. She's also from the east coast, so could have some frame of reference when you are ready to try to get services/help for your sister.

Dr. Thaler has an office on Curtis Street at Solano Ave in Albany but she is currently seeing patients via zoom or phone chat. Her number is 510-466-5691.

In the past 13 years, she has helped my family and me tremendously.

Sep 1, 2021
Very triggering relationship with adult brother
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May 18, 2021

my brother and i are ~ 28 months apart. i am a 36 year old woman. we've had periods of being close and periods of not getting along. we've gotten into some exchanges over text recently that are very triggering and upsetting for me and make me feel really uncomfortable.

he says that he wants us to be closer, that i don't really know who he is, that he can be "direct and hurt/scare me" or not be direct and just "disappear in every conversation." he texted me "try to ask yourself; you have any idea who your own brother is? have tried to know? disappeared from your own perspective and anxiety to actually know? " when i didn't respond he wrote "FYI you are ignoring these messages and the ones above it, is real life. and its noted." i said, "im sorry. i love you." and he goes on and eventually says "your actions are real, seen, not forgotten, and have an effect. they always have." i believe the "actions" he's referring to are my "dismissal of responsibility" for my "poor communication" and maybe for my inability to be the super close sister that he wants (?)

he was gone for 6 weeks on a road trip and things became cordial again, seeing him at a family gathering we made eye contact and small talk that was genuine (i thought), and he sent me a few pictures from his trip and i sent a picture of my daughter/his niece. he's back for 7 days before leaving again on business and he wrote saying that he wants to start doing the weekly babysitting again for my daughter (this ended after the long exchange quoted from above, neither of us reached out to schedule another day, i was hoping he wouldn't and he didnt... so it just didnt happen), and that his girlfriend is moving in with him, and that he made some choices with his job so as to work remote permanently. i didnt respond to the texts, but did respond when, two days later he wished my daughter happy birthday (thank you! was my response). now its a week later and he says "you never answered the texts i wrote last week. i figure the content in general tends to paralyze you." i feel myself flooded, so confused, reading that sentence is very triggering for me and seems super weird - but i don't know who to ask ?!

(yes i know i should be in therapy, i have been, my subsidized rate ended so im not right now but hope to find someone). thank you for reading thus far, i know that this is a THERAPY question, and i hope that fits into the parameters of what this group is for.

in closing, wise network: does that seem like a super weird text to receive and kind of...i don't know emotionally abusive or something?? i don't know if im using that term correctly. or, does it seem like i could totally be at fault here just as much as he, for the sticky quality of this relationship?

what i want is to have a cordial, friendly, supportive sibling relationship. and i think he wants to have some idealized super close deep relationship.

also, about 6 months ago at a family dinner there was some disagreement between us about, parenting, and it got a little heightened for a moment and then he turned to me, with eyes wide, jutting his head forward, said "you better CHECK yourself." my cheeks flushed and i almost cried. my two year old was next to me.

i don't know how to put forth boundaries/communicate maturely around this.

May 18, 2021

I was always super close with my brother until the last 5-6 years (actually more so due to his spouse but long story). Anyway, things that have helped me with my relationship with him:

-Don't text serious stuff. Things can be misconstrued. If he texts you something serious, respond with, "let's chat about it in person". Or "I'll give you a call later".

-Shrug off the little stuff. Similar to you, I take things VERY personally. I've realized, I just can't. He is who he is and I am who I am. We've disagreed on many things recently and rather than "talking it out", we've actually just "moved on". We both know we will agree to disagree so it's worthless to continue to "talk" (or argue rather) and bring up the emotions. Moving on has worked for us.

-Accept your new relationship. I've accepted our "new" relationship and it works and it works well. We may not be as close as we previously were but it's OK. We still chat, hang out and get along well. He actually gets along with my husband super well so he usually just texts him and works for me!

Best of luck with your relationship. All relationships are different so I hope some of the things that worked for me, can help you!

May 19, 2021

I’m almost fifty and if there’s one lesson I wish I’d learned earlier in life, it is: TRUST YOUR INSTINCTS.

You don’t have to make a big determination right now about whether or not his behavior is abusive (though, yeah, from this limited description he does not sound like a generous, compassionate, healthy person) to take a break. You are really uncomfortable with the dynamic of your relationship with him, and it sounds like you are feeling pressured/bullied/shamed by him...I say, just because he is pressuring you does not mean you need to feel pressured. You are ENTIRELY allowed to take whatever space and time you need away from him. You can say, “I love you, but I’m not feeling good about our dynamic, and I need to step away. I’ll let you know when I’m ready to be in communication with you again.” You don’t have to justify it. He will push back really hard on this, I imagine, because he sounds like a controlling person. But think about it—if someone you cared about told you that they needed a break, I bet your response would be accepting and supportive. And I also bet that is not the response he gives you.

Also for the love of God do not accept the babysitting offer.

In absence of therapy—please discuss this with a friend you trust, who you know loves you. And this is a weird recommendation but Carolyn Hax has an advice column in the Washington Post and she often gives BRILLIANT advice to people who are coping with relationships with friends and family members who sound like your brother. Read her column. And maybe write her about this, if she takes your question I am confident she will have something helpful to offer.

BE LOVING WITH YOURSELF. Do not expose yourself or feel beholden to people who shame you and make you feel terrible. You do not owe him ANYTHING. People who love you will respect your feelings and needs and not push back and shame you when you express them.

Good luck. ♥️

May 19, 2021

Your brother sounds like a jerk, sorry to say. I don't know what you owe him at this point. I would just stop responding to texts and when you see him at family events, keep it short and cordial but not personal or emotional. I found Mariah Carey's recent memoir really elucidated this point - she refers to her siblings as her EX brother and her EX sister due to their patterns of abuse over the years. It might be a good read for you too.

May 19, 2021

It is so hard to understand this situation only hearing one point of view. I will say that while your brother does seem to have an intense personality, I am most struck by your passive aggressive and avoidant reactions. To me personally, his bids for connection seem in the normal range EXCEPT that engaging in emotional conversations via text is nuts. Just hang out with him. Communicate in person. Look him in the eye. What if you did therapy together? That seems potentially helpful. I find myself wondering if you might have something diagnosable OR there is some major childhood trauma that I am not understanding. I absolutely do think you should be in therapy. Something is going on that's hard to understand, and at least part of it must be related to you. I say that with kindness - I have plenty of personality challenges and "baggage" myself!

May 19, 2021

And just adding - my read on his statement "your actions have an effect" is NOT about the harsh criticism that you assume, it's his wish for the comfortably close sister that he wants. I would love for my brother to be this way, for what it's worth.

May 19, 2021

Wow this sounds so like my brother. Lots of red flags, he sounds really controlling and scary. But I wasn't sure the rest of the story - for example, does he have a history of difficulty keeping a job, petty crime or drugs, other signs if instability? How is his relationship with your parents or others in the family?

Based upon what you write (and I may be projecting my own brother onto to him) but I would just try to keep things friendly but distant. Friendly because it sounds like he is hyper-senstive to perceived rejection and can become aggressive. I can see this is actually exactly what you are trying to do and he is challenging you in an in-your-face manner.

I actually moved oversees and part of it was to get away from my family but now that my parents are elderly I have to deal with my brother and I honestly find it frightening. If I lived nearby, I would probably make up an excuse to not see him often, something like look I am just really busy right now with x and x, so please don't take it personally, and stick with that. I would NOT let him start babysitting again but again I may just be projecting my own brother.

Why does your brother focus so much on you? I see you write his girlfriend is moving in and you don't mention he has children, normally a sibling would be involved with their own family too much to become obsessive about yours but he doesn't seem to have that. Same with my brother who can't hold a job, relies on my parents for money, has relationship difficulties and seems angry with me because I built a different life. Do you think he is somewhat jealous of you, or resents you?

All I can hope with my brother is that I can contain my real feelings (because he would seek some sort of revenge or maybe violence if he felt I didn't like him) and just stay pleasant but distant. It means I let go and don't respond to a lot of his angry aggressive stuff. This is really hard but it is pointless to respond to his weird rantings. I just hope that once our parents are gone, I can ease out and never speak to him again.

Has your brother always been like this? Do you have other siblings or parents who could act as a buffer?

But to answer your question, YES it is weird, obsessive and controlling, but try to stay even, do not think you can resolve this verbally, stick to the idea you are just busy but happy to hear from him and keep a safe distance from him.

I am really sorry you are dealing with this. I know how stressful it is, and can make you feel so lonely to have family who are so weird and threatening. Hopefully someone else has an idea of how to handle it. Otherwise, maybe things will change in his life so that his focus will shift away from you. Thinking of you!

May 19, 2021

I'm responding as a fellow parent and no more. I would feel a stronger obligation to protect my children than myself. I would not leave my children alone with anyone whose intentions are unclear or with whom I do not feel comfortable communicating with in person. You have no obligation to address anyone else's opinion of your parenting. Your child will also pick up on your elevated anxiety and this will inform their view of the world. Keep your kids out of this.

May 19, 2021

I’m not a therapist or expert, just giving my opinion. It is absolutely healthy and OK not to have a relationship with anyone that makes you uncomfortable, including family members. You should not feel guilty about setting strong boundaries or completely avoiding your brother if that will make you happier.

May 19, 2021

Friend, I am very sorry to hear this, which sounds very, very hard.

While I don't have full context, I will say: yes, your brother's behavior is emotionally abusive. He's sending you texts accusing you of heaven knows what - he'd gaslighting you. And texting is never the right vehicle for communicating serious emotional conversations. I would NOT allow him to be alone with my child. I wouldn't want him to be with my child even if I were there. I wish you luck setting appropriate boundaries with him, which may include cutting him out of your life.

May 19, 2021

It's really hard to tell what's going on here. It sounds like he wants to process some things but you don't. Stop the texting and just talk to him. These kinds of conversations never go well by text. I think that you should talk to him in person or over the phone. He's trying to tell you something but you don't appear to be listening. I'd try a little harder.

May 20, 2021

I can't speak to what your brother is thinking, but reading the tone of your post, you find your brother's behavior upsetting and somewhat threatening. Heed your emotions--and don't get bullied into an unhealthy relationship! Above all else, protect your daughter. If you don't even want to respond to your brother's texts because they threaten you, why are you allowing him to babysit your daughter? She's can't speak up to protect herself, she can't even report back to you if anything happens to her at his house. My mother used to leave us with family, who blindly allowed our crazy uncle to terrorize us, while my mother and her parents went through life in denial about his problems. So LISTEN TO YOUR FEELINGS.

May 26, 2021

It seems to me that you and your brother each want a type of relationship that may not be realistically possible between you. Your brother appears to believe that any distance between you is rejection on your part -- that is, failure to truly know him -- while he's also critical of you. Truly knowing another person requires suspending judgment, and if it's a balanced relationship that suspension has to go both ways. And while you want a supportive relationship, I don't think he would feel supported by what you are willing to offer.

It also sounds like your brother wants a kind of emotional intimacy that might even weigh down a spousal relationship.

You could attempt to work this out with some kind of sibling version of couples therapy, but the underlying impasse would likely not be resolved -- though it may make the existence of the impasse clearer to your brother, and get him to back off.

I speak from experience (I'm 30 years older than you), as I come from a family that both demanded excess loyalty and self-revelatory intimacy and dealt out scads of rage. I spent my teens and twenties trying to get healing within that context, that is, within the family relationship rules. Lots of therapy later, I realized that I could not have a relationship with them that was both healthy and close. I found that each bit of boundary I put down made me healthier and happier, and was treated as rejection and cruelty by my family. I wish them well, on some level I still love them and miss them, but not at the cost of my sanity. My brothers have both died (frankly, largely due to poor mental health), I have no contact with one sister, and minimal contact with the other.

Two more points: dramatic relationships can be addictive. My home life right now is like a merry-go-round compared to the roller coaster of my birth family, and lots of people like roller coasters. Of course, on a merry-go-round you can have a conversation, read a book, play a game, think your thoughts, and overall FUNCTION, while on a roller coaster all you can do is scream. Putting sane boundaries on your relationship with your brother my feel like a let-down, but it's for your ultimate good -- and his.

Second: I think I've been a pretty good mom, and there is no way I could have managed that without establishing boundaries with my birth family, because establishing those boundaries was equivalent to learning how to have sane relationships. Not surprisingly, when my sister is in town, I end up reverting a bit, and my daughter hates it.

May 26, 2021

I am not an expert but his comments make me super uncomfortable. Yes, he is looking for something more from you but it doesn’t seem to me like he is a healthy person trying to talk about his feelings with you in a healthy and constructive way. Instead, he seems angry, accusatory, and aggressive. Good for you for pursuing affordable therapy options; but is *he* in therapy? Somehow I doubt it and I suspect the idea might enrage him. (Not a normal and healthy response!) I’m not saying that you or he is to “blame” for whatever dynamic you two have. I simply wanted to respond to tell you that I don’t think you are overreacting and that I believe your instincts are correct. I hope you are able to find a therapist you can afford, and I hope your brother is able to get the help he clearly needs.

May 26, 2021
Any experience with dealing with difficult family dynamics?
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Apr 26, 2017

Do you have any advice on repairing relationships between adult siblings who have gone in different directions? Within the adult siblings, there is a small clique who seem to feel that they are far above the others with their parenting and expensive holistic lifestyles. While I always imagined that our children (cousins) would get along great and "grow up together" since most live close, that hasn't proven to be the case. And maybe I am being unrealistic, since the clique seems to be happy with the exclusiveness of their relationship. In other words, they have everything they need and seem as though they would rather not make the effort to change the damaged relationships within the adult sib group that have occurred over the last 3 years.

The other sibs have taken various approaches, including finding friends to create their own "families." But it seems so sad and dysfunctional to have a group within a family who seem to relish that they are "superior" to their siblings.

Thank you for your insights & advice.

Apr 26, 2017

My husband has 5 siblings and he is close with only one of them. He tolerates two of them, and is downright estranged from the other two, for complicated reasons with fault on both sides (in my opinion, although my husband would not agree). The mantra that you can't change other people, you can only change yourself, definitely applies to this situation, so really think about if there is anything you can do about YOURSELF that might help improve things. I note that it sounds like you don't like the siblings in the "clique" so it isn't surprising that they are not reaching out to you. I would also try to separate your two goals - repairing the relations with these adults being one goal, and the other goal being to help your kids to have good relationships with their cousins. You don't need to be tight with the parents in order for the kids to get along. My son, for example, is now pretty close with the son of one of the siblings my husband barely speaks to.

And back to the adults - is there anyone in the family who might be able to give you a different perspective on the situation?

Apr 27, 2017

I had a big fight with my sister awhile back, but I wanted the cousins to be grow up together. So I would host cousin outings and sleepovers without the parents. Over the years, tensions with my sister have dissipated and the cousins have many fond memories.

May 3, 2017

Maybe you did something to offend them. You could ask them what you could do to improve relations. Are you willing to apologize. It is impossible to be friends with someone who doesn't want to be friends with you. If they don't want anything to do with the poor relatives, you will just have to accept that.

May 3, 2017

I think that different families require different solutions. However, family counseling can sometimes work wonders. I have been really happy with the counseling my family received at Blue Oak Therapy.

http://blueoaktherapycenter.org/

Good luck!

Henry

May 5, 2017

I agree with what Iris had to say: "Maybe you did something to offend them. You could ask them what you could do to improve relations. Are you willing to apologize? It is impossible to be friends with someone who doesn't want to be friends with you. If they don't want anything to do with the poor relatives, you will just have to accept that."

Sadly, I have similar experience with adult siblings. (One of them is by nature just immeasurably superior to the rest of us, and another found religion and has now also become superior.) I'm not assuming you did or said anything offensive, just that it was perceived that way. I found with the two "unreasonable" siblings and my teenage daughter--unreasonable by definition much of the time--that it usually helped to say something like, "I really regret say/doing ________. I didn't mean to offend you. How can I make things better?" This is not an apology per se, but it helped my daughter in particular to save face, and gave her an opportunity to vent. Good luck. (By the way, are you a younger/youngest sibling? Birth order usually plays a role as well.)

May 10, 2017

Relationships with siblings are the most complicated and long lasting. I have three siblings. I did not speak to the youngest for several years, which was her doing completely. She came to her senses after about three years and apologized. I still don't completely understand it, but I'm guessing some of it had to do with her not being married at the ago of 40 and possibly resenting the life I have chosen (happily married with three kids.) The whole thing upset me a lot because she basically cut herself off during this time from my kids (her niece and nephews), whom she adores. My husband and I also have been extremely helpful and generous to her over the years in so many ways. Her relationship with our parents could be the root cause, but I'll never know for sure.

I think a lot of tension among siblings stems from how their parents treated them growing up and if the parents showed obvious favoritism. I also think adults' relationship with their parents can affect their other relationships. If your siblings have a strong and unhealthy attachment to a parent (co-dependency), that can wreak havoc on family relations. My husband is estranged from his brother, and the reason is that his mother coddled the brother and made excuses for his irresponsible behavior his whole life.

My point is that I might try to look at your siblings' relationship with your parents for clues. Finding close friends to be with can be a healthy substitute for unhappy family gatherings done only out of duty.

May 12, 2017
Grown children hate each other
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Nov 26, 2016

I am coming off of a horrific family gathering over thanksgiving- my 23 yr old "launched" daughter and my 21 yr old college student son have never gotten along well but this was especially awful. I think my son might be jealous of her success as he is floundering in college and barely passing and she has done the traditional route of college to really cool and rewarding job. I want to hear from other parents ---shall I quit having hopes of them ever getting along? We are supposed to have another big family reunion of sorts over Christmas and I dread trying again as it is soooo disappointing and embarrassing --- please no judgement as I am raw with pain. And if your kids did grow out of their childhood resentments etc --- when did it finally happen?

Nov 26, 2016

Hi, I can respond to this from the sibling perspective more than from the parent perspective, hope that this helps. My brother and I were 2 years apart. We were never close, fought a lot (even physically) as kids. I can say now, as an adult, that this stemmed from my mother's subconscious preference for him over me. It took many years of therapy to work through all this, I thought for years it was my own fault. My mother also took great pains over the years to pressure us to stay close, which backfired on her because I am now estranged from both of them for going on 6 years (no regrets on that front). So my advice to you is twofold: Examine your own behaviors and look deep - your son's jealousy did not spring freeform out of his view of his sister, it is real, and it is most likely tied in to you somehow. Whatever you do, do not try to play peacemaker, do not criticize either party, do not try to manipulate the situation in any way. The more you try to influence the situation the worse it will get. They're adults. Let them work it out (or not) - basically take a deep breath and let go. As for practical matters, if they are not able to act like adults in a large group setting then don't invite them, perhaps encourage them to explore their own "Friendsgiving" next year and save yourself the grief. And when I say don't invite them, let me be clear, either invite both or none, do not invite one over the other (that will only feed the beast). As for the coming holidays, speak with them separately and lay down some boundaries, but also give them permission to not attend if they don't want to. Keep reminding yourself that the universe lent them to you, and now that they are adults, they are no longer yours to keep.

Nov 28, 2016

Hello,

I hear your pain and am sending you my sympathies and hugs. I too have kids, older son with mental illness and younger daughter a freshman studying engineering. I can relate to having dissimilar kids having to interact with each other without stressing us all out. Its always tough. We have to keep talking to our daughter to be tolerant and respectful and patient. My son on the other hand can be completely oblivious to the stress his behaviors cause to the family.

My suggestion to you is to keep such gatherings at a minimum. Talk to them both separately about how you feel. Perhaps your daughter can talk directly to your son about how he feels. He may open out to her more privately. He may just need a friendly ear. Even if they dont like each other much, your home should be a neutral zone and they have to be nice and respectful to each other and towards all of you. Best Wishes!!

Nov 28, 2016

Hi, hate to disappoint, but my sibling and I fought bitterly as kids and we've just never been close. It's very sad for me to not have that closeness but here we are, late middle age, and it's just not going to happen. Our personalities are very different. I suggest that you talk with each child separately in person if you can, or on the phone if you can't, to bring it up and ask their views about how to make it a better family time over Xmas. What do they want/need from each other? What sets them off? Maybe you should play some fun games to force them into a different, more fun mode, if you can. Sorry, no magic bullet here; wish there were one! I'd use it!

Nov 28, 2016

In their thirties...as they both became established in their adult lives. Until then, distance and autonomy helped. My kids were perhaps less acrimonious than yours are, but there were similarities. Older son straight thru college, career, marriage. Younger daughter drop out, in debt, car accidents. He was righteous. She was irresponsible. Now she a degree, great marriage, kids. They still don't have much in common, but they work at it. Our best shared times are vacations that don't require lockstep activities or other in-laws. Too much accomodating isn't fun. Can you skip the next big family event and take the two of them to a cabin, or casino, or whatever? Keep in mind that the most important thing is for YOU to have a good relationship with each of them independently of each other... I'll bet they co e around in another ten years.

Nov 28, 2016

I suggest family therapy, as quickly as you possibly can.

My older sister and I never got along. In our childhood, she bullied me and put me down constantly, and no one ever wanted to see it or make her stop. I fought back, stubbornly, and we had horrible fights. I grieved for years about losing my only sibling, but in adulthood it has only gotten worse. Our mother is heartbroken, and it is really sad that I could never be a proper auntie to her children, or she to mine, because of all the tension and hurt feelings. Nip this in the bud and try to get healing now.

Nov 28, 2016

When they are thirty, with established, independent adult lives. My two were not overtly hostile, but there are lots of similarities. Older son went straight thru college, then career, marriage and home ownership. Younger one dropped out, ran up debts and did scary stuff for years. They did not get along. But by their thirties they were working it out, finding a few common interests and some mutual respect. Give them space, don't force family ties, don't carry tales, and maintain a good relationship with them independently. It will get much better, but it may take another ten years.

Nov 28, 2016

So sorry to hear about your situation. Growing up, my brother and I were never close. We fought as kids and were at boarding school as teens (separate places). As young adults, we lived on different coasts and never saw each other. I was the successful older sibling, making a career, saving money, getting married and having kids. He was a college dropout, under-employed, married and divorced, not building a career, former drug addict, unstable housing, couch surfing, etc.

We are now in our 40s and have recently become close. We are business partners now. Essentially, my husband and I have invested in a company that is managed by my brother. We are both happy with this arrangement and have enjoyed being close for the first time. It took him settling down with a very responsible and stable second wife and his admitting to himself and me that he "wasted 15 years of his life". He regrets being behind his peers in nearly every way. He's now sober, mature, talented, contributing member of society. Sadly, what brought us back together is our ailing parents who have declined mentally and physically and needed our help.

Unfortunately, I see a lot of parallels in my kids too. They are at each other all the time and are walking very different paths. One driven, successful and going places. The other struggling, resentful and jealous. I can only hope that they too will patch things up one day, even if it takes decades.

Nov 30, 2016

My brother and I are now in our 40s and have always struggled to get along. I'm a "bleeding heart liberal" (his words) and he's a "realist" (his words) to short-cut the summary of our 20s and 30s. After many years of him floundering, he's now a very successful engineer with a family and a house and the whole deal. We still fight during the holidays about all sorts of political issues, but now we hug afterwards.

I'm writing cause I really wish my parents had tried to actively help us stay in contact and get along better earlier. I grew up not understanding how my parents could live so far away from their numerous siblings and have so little contact. I've watched my sister work really hard at getting her kids (in their teens still) to see what is valuable about their relationship with each other and they have maintained a very close relationship and a super close family. I am left feeling like I wish my parents had done that for us AND struggling to figure out how to do that for my own to kids. I think it's worth trying to figure out how to get your kids to talk to each other about what is important to them about each other and their relationship. I realize that sometimes families feel like little groups of strangers but that is not my ideal. It seems worth working for something better.

Nov 30, 2016

There are a million reasons for siblings to hate each other, and I have a friend who is a sociologist who researches the topic and tells me that it is extremely common for adult siblings to totally break off contact with each other.

But how sad. Right?
My sister and I did not get along well for much of our early adult lives. We get along very well now (in our 50s!). Our conflicts were fueled by competitiveness for our parents' attention and approval, and I think my mother fed the fire (unknowingly) by comparing us, talking about one with the other, and generally being too much between us. I am not in any way saying this is the case in your family, as every dynamic is different and again, I think there are lots of reasons siblings can have conflicts. Plus, my mother's a piece of work, there is no way you could compare. But I bring it up to encourage you to stay out of it and let them work it out. Maybe it is competition. Maybe they are just very different people. Who knows? But I think talking to them about each other--even if you do it to 'help' them with these conflicts--will fuel the fire.

Focus on your relationship with each of them and let them battle their own stuff out.

Hope Christmas is peaceful!

Nov 30, 2016

Sorry to say - my older sis and I never got along and we still don't as thirty-something adults. We're a year apart. Our personalities are so different, there are many resentments about the past and what we each contribute to the bigger family, and bad communication. However, we're still really involved in each others' lives, because we have children who love one another and we live in neighboring towns. The resentments usually simmer beneath the surface and only pop to the surface now and then. We're also involved for our parents' sake, and despite it all, we love one another.

Nov 30, 2016
Brother in law dilemma.
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Jul 19, 2016

Hi, I have a dilemma. My husband and I and our 2 year old moved into our place last fall. His brother and his then girlfriend moved in and stayed for 2 months as they sorted out their living situation and traveled. They did not pay rent. Then they broke up and now my BIL (29yrs) has been staying with us for almost 5 months now, in our spare bedroom. I'm expecting and am quite sensitive and grouchy.

He is a nice person, and relatively helpful if asked to do specific things, but it really bothers me that he doesn't pay rent or help with utilities, etc. He did have a job but is now potentially focusing on studying in hopes of making a career change. He *may* move out, but it is unclear when and there is no "move out" date. He is theoretically not paying rent so he can become financially stable and able to support himself on his own. Originally we didn't pay for food, but more recently if we order take out my husband just buys his food. This isn't reciprocated, and in my opinion this adds up.

I'm resentful and this is a major source of conflict in my marriage and is making living in my own home less pleasant. My husband thinks I'm overreacting and "he doesn't owe us anything" and has said he can "stay forever." It also certainly has negatively affected my relationship with my BIL, whom I was close with at one time. I will admit I am irritable with him. It also gets in the way of my husband and I having our own time alone... Often I get home and it's another all-of-us-are-home night, one that I didn't sign up for.

What to do? How to approach my husband? Advice sorely needed.

Jul 19, 2016

Wow. It sounds really tough! I remember having a toddler and being pregnant with my second child and that was difficult enough without a permanent guest. At 29 years old, your BIL needs to pay rent, no matter what is happening. Or he can move back home with parents, BTW, why is your husband acting like his parent? I would suggest having a long talk with hubby with a counselor/therapist there to referee, to back you up. Your ideas about your own home and family are not being heard and respected, and really, that is not working for anyone in your household, especially your child- they get it, they pick up on so much that is unsaid. Best to you and congrats on your pregnancy!

Jul 20, 2016

You are in a marriage; you and your husband should be making decisions about these types of matters as a team. He should not be unilaterally deciding that your BIL can stay forever in the house without paying rent if that's not okay with you. I would get clear on what you really want - would you be okay with your BIL staying if he paid rent, or took on a household responsibility of equivalent value (child care?), or do you just want him to move out? Then sit down with your husband at a time when you're both relatively rested and clear-headed and explain to him that you are unhappy with the current situation and propose the change you want. If he continues to flatly refuse to consider your needs, the next step is marriage counseling. Marriage is about communication and compromise - if he can't get on board with that about your living situation then he probably needs a professional to help him develop those skills. Good luck to you!

Jul 20, 2016

I would look for way to allow your BIL to stay AND make your home more pleasant. It's wonderful to be able to help a family member - and with a new baby on the way, maybe he could be helpful to you? Living together is hard and requires some negotiation. So figure out a few requests: $50/month for utilities and food, one night a week of babysitting, a couple household responsibilities (trash/laundry), help with repairs, painting, getting ready for new baby, etc. Approach your husband/BIL, explain that you're grumpy and sensitive, and ask for what you need to keep the situation going. He is part of the family, so it seems fair that he contribute to the family needs.

If you can get through this and maintain your closeness with your BIL, this could be a nice memory in the future to know that you helped him out during a difficult time.

Good luck!

Jul 20, 2016

It sounds like what really needs attention here are the dynamics in your marriage. How exactly did the conversation(s) go about your BIL and his girlfriend coming to stay with you in the first place? Did your husband ask you what you were comfortable with and what would work for you? Did you identify your own needs and express them at all? If you did, did your husband then just ignore them? Did he even ask you about this step, or did he just tell you?

To give you some perspective: having another person stay with you for 5 months (!) and with no move-out date (!!) is something you are perfectly within your rights to complain about. Your husband is showing a shocking lack of respect for you. The fact that your husband is a) dismissing your perfectly valid concerns; and b) attempting to simply impose another person on you *in your own home,* despite your concerns and the fact that you're clearly very unhappy about it ... well, that's a big, big problem in your marriage.

What to do? Well, what I think is called for is probably not what you're ready to do, but here it is anyway: what's called for is to give your BIL reasonable notice -- say between 2-4 weeks -- that he must find another place to stay. During that time, he must contribute to the household by taking on some chores. I'd say it's reasonable for him to clean up after all meals, to cook 1-2 meals a week, and to take on another chore such as laundry or yard care/etc. You can decide what those chores are. You don't *ask* your husband if those limits are OK -- you *tell him* that since he's decided to impose this on you, you're now taking back control of your life and your home.

How to approach your husband? You *tell* your husband (no asking!) that your marriage needs some serious help to get the power dynamics back to a healthy level, and he can join you in counseling, or you'll be going there yourself. Then make good on all of that.

If you're not ready to do all of this, then head to counseling yourself and figure out how things have got to the point where you're no longer able to get a say on what happens to you *in your own home.*

Jul 20, 2016

Not sure why your husband isn't respecting your wishes to have an end date to his brother's tenancy, but it's not unreasonable. (Is the BIL even providing babysitting for the 2 year old?) You should feel free to tell him nicely he needs to move out in the next month. Your husband can disagree but it's your home too! Definitely sounds like there are some cultural issues at play here but IMHO you're in the right.

Jul 21, 2016

Two issues: (1) your interface with your husband and (2) your interface with your BIL.

(1) Let's assume for the sake of argument that your husband is a nice guy who wants to help his brother, but his primary commitment is to his wife - as it oughta be.

Have you given your husband a specific limit to how long you will tolerate his brother's imposing himself on you?

If your husband cannot set a limit, will he back you up if you tell him that YOU are setting a limit on this man's staying with you?

(2) Are you able to say "Listen, Stanley, I think it would be better to you to get your own place. I am feeling that my privacy is invaded. Your deadline is (e.g. 1 September.)

Wishing you the best.

Jul 22, 2016

Could you get your husband to agree to charge him "rent" which you will put into a separate bank account, and then return to him when he moves out (either all of it or some percentage)? That way the BIL is indeed saving up for his eventual departure from your home, and frankly, also has some motivation to get going with his life. Living "rent free" does not often translate into building up a large capital base. This is what I've noticed with adult children, in any event: the money they are supposedly saving instead goes to clothing, entertainment, etc.

Jul 25, 2016

RE:

Eviction of sibling in their 50s - what to do (Sep 30, 2023)

I'm so sorry you are in the middle of such a difficult situation. It sounds like it's been going on for a long time, and is not likely to change without some impetus to change.

I am not a mental health professional, but I have lived experience with a family member with mental health issues. I wonder if your sibling is living with undiagnosed mental health problems. If you'd like to explore that potential, I recommend you connect with your local NAMI chapter. NAMI can provide support for you, as you navigate the situation and explore best ways to support your sibling, as well as your sibling. The first hurdle may be his willingness to even consider getting assessed and help. Also look into what the Health and Human Services and Housing departments of the county your sibling lives in offers. His local HHS may have programs to support his needs, including support in addressing his housing crisis.

If your sibling does have an undiagnosed mental health problem, and receives a diagnosis, he may be eligible for government support at the local, state, and federal level.

Even as you sound worn out by this, I sense that you are loving and compassionate. You can love him and support him without his needs negatively impacting you and the quality of your life. I wish you much support in this journey.

Oct 5, 2023

RE:

Eviction of sibling in their 50s - what to do (Sep 30, 2023)

Well, ion he has a brain injury that is a medical condition which explains the paranoia and anger,. It's tuff! he'll likely never be grateful, or show it at least, but... I would help him as much as you can.... not expecting anything in return,.

Oct 5, 2023

RE:

Eviction of sibling in their 50s - what to do (Sep 30, 2023)

I'm sorry you're in this situation. I don't have direct experience with it but I follow the good work of Shelter Inc. and from reading their newsletter you might start by calling 211. "'211' is a county-based agency in more than 200 counties across the country that serves as a point of entry for services such as homelessness. Once a person engages with 211, they are referred to the county’s Coordinated Entry System that triages and prioritizes the unhoused and at-risk of becoming unhoused for access to housing and homeless services. This is the primary referral point through which participants are referred to enter our programs."

Oct 4, 2023

RE:

Eviction of sibling in their 50s - what to do (Sep 30, 2023)

I'm sorry you're going through this, and I know how you feel! For what it's worth, I faced a somewhat similar situation with a family member. He just had never taken any financial responsibility, and then was almost homeless. I know you didn't ask for help with your own feelings, but I wanted to put this out there: You're right -- at the end of the day, he is at least somewhat responsible for his situation (brain injury notwithstanding), and even if in theory he's not -- that doesn't mean you "have to" relate to him in ways that would hurt you. I think if you want to help it would be best for you to do that with a crystal-clear understanding and acceptance of the fact that he won't respond in a way that is genuinely respectful and loving. Quite the opposite, it sounds like. But if you expect absolutely nothing in return, it can make giving a little easier. In my situation, I had to come to terms with the fact that if I rescued my family member, it would mean serious hardship for me, and if I watched him become homeless, that would be extremely painful -- but there would be pain either way, and I'd rather have the pain of watching someone fall vs the pain of carrying someone who was never really willing to carry himself. Something else that helped in my case was the insight that I COULD help, even if only a little. I couldn't rescue anyone, but I could still offer some help, at a level that didn't hurt me. I know it's hard, though. It really is painful. I expect you'll get some good suggestions for things that could help him, and I hope he seeks that help!

Oct 4, 2023

RE:

Eviction of sibling in their 50s - what to do (Sep 30, 2023)

This is difficult I am certain. Given what you wrote I wouldn’t co sign anything. You could either buy him something as you say in Oregon or agree to pay his rent somewhere such as in a small studio.m so you are in control of your own finances and credit. It seems you would not feel right leaving him to homelessness. You also seem to know though he is an adult he has limitations given his brain injury. Expecting him to make it on his own seems unrealistic. If you help you have to be resigned that he may not show the appreciation you want and just know you are doing the compassionate and morally right thing

Oct 4, 2023

RE:

Eviction of sibling in their 50s - what to do (Sep 30, 2023)

You should talk to a lawyer about how best to handle this. Housing issues are so complicated, especially combined w/ disability or age!

Oct 4, 2023

RE:

Eviction of sibling in their 50s - what to do (Sep 30, 2023)

Supportive housing? Our family bought a condo for a relative with mental health problems. It was a good investment in terms of their stability. If you think your relative could stay in the condo without doing something that would get him evicted that sounds like a good idea. Maybe talk to a social worker? Jewish Family Services has some -- I know about it for elder relatives, but maybe they can also help with a relative with a mental health problem.

Oct 4, 2023

RE:

Eviction of sibling in their 50s - what to do (Sep 30, 2023)

I feel like I could have written this message about my younger sibling who was facing eviction earlier this spring. I actually chose to extract myself from the situation, and have no idea what ended up happening or where my sibling landed. I could find out, but for my own mental health I have not followed up. (We are new parents and already overwhelmed with our day to day life.) It is extremely painful knowing that any help I give will not be "enough." I really feel for you and hope you find a more satisfactory solution than I did, or at least one that you can live with.

Oct 4, 2023

Archived Q&A and Reviews

Questions

Breaking ties with an adult sibling
Adult Siblings' Wars

Related Pages

Breaking ties with an adult sibling

April 2009

I would like advice from those of you who have if not broken off ties, lessened contact with an adult sibling. I am not interested in responses that simplify the matter and say we should just try to work it out. I have a sister who I find to be toxic. She puts on a fake friendly manner when face to face but is backstabbing when I am not present. I am tense when I am around her and we were never friends as children as she was much older than me and would torment me. Now that we have kids of similar age she arranges trips to visit me at least 3 times a year (she lives in a different part of the state). And while it could be nice for the cousins to be friends, it takes too much a toll on me when she visits. She never calls me in between visits so we have no real relationship, and I really don't want one with her. She just uses me as an audience to talk about her life and gain info from me to use behind my back. She has even insinuated herself into my relationship with my inlaws, contacting them by telephone and email which they see as just extreme friendliness, but which is another loudspeaker for her to talk about me negatively. Even my father has told me that she is obsessed with me. I have heard from relatives slanderous things she has said about me. So now that I am trying to cut or limit ties to her, she is trying to make me look bad to the extended family and in-laws when I believe I am acting out of self-preservation. How did you go about cutting ties? Just tell her it is not a convenient time to visit? Or formally tell her how I feel about her and say I don't want that much contact with her (and then have her characterize me to everyone as a selfish mother). She has already indicated that she believes I'm depriving my children of a relationship with their cousin by not arranging visits. Please help! Don't want this woman in my life

To an outsider, breaking ties with a sibling might seem unforgivable. But in my case, ending my relationship with my older brother twenty years ago was the best decision I have ever made. I did it by being upfront about it, but also with the caveat that should he seek continued counseling, I would consider speaking to him again. He did not. I was also clear with my family about what I had done and why and am thankful that there was very little back and forth about it from them.

Ending our sibling relationship allowed me instant breathing room and as the years rolled by, and with the help of Berkeley therapist Toni Ayres, I was able to understand the dysfunctional family system that supported and ignored my brother's abhorrent behavior.

An interesting side note is that within six years, none of my other siblings and my brother's adult children were in any type of a relationship with him and by seven years, he stopped speaking to my mom.

For me the big question was why he behaved the way he did and I now understand that my brother was a child, and is now an adult with Reactive Attachment Disorder. This has allowed me to have compassion for him - something that I never thought I'd feel. anon

I know of other people who have cut ties with siblings, and most of them have done so formally -- by saying explicitly that they no longer wish to have contact with the sibling. It might help to list specific instances when your sister was cruel or negative about you, so that she can she what it is specifically that you can not accept about her. I would give the same information to your parents and other siblings. She will probably put a negative spin on it, but you should have the chance to make your perspective and wishes known. oldest sister

It sounds to me that you have thought this through pretty carefully and it would be the right decision for you to get this person out of your life. Sure, there are 'cons' but the pros outweigh them. It is sad, but your path seems clear. Based on my own experience with a friend, not a family member, who did similar things, I would avoid confrontation. That will just prolong the process and feed your sister's need for drama. Whatever you say, no matter how reasonable and fair, will be twisted and consume tons of your emotional energy, unless you can just write her a letter and truly ignore whatever response you get back (whether directly from her or from other family members). I suspect you won't be able to do that so you would be better off not saying anything.

-- So sorry to hear about what is clearly an anguishing situation - having been through something akin to this in my own family (albeit with my dad), here are some thoughts: whatever you do, whatever choice you make, will be painful. Staying in a relationship with a toxic sibling/parent is damaging on a prolonged basis. Ending a relationship with a toxic relative contains the damage and eases the day-to-day hurt, but the wound will still be there for a long time to come. What really helped me separate from my dad (as unbelievable to me as seeing those twin towers collapse) was having kids - and I really thought, do I want to expose my kids to this type of behavior, is being in this sort of relationship the modeling I want to do for them? The answers announced themselves and made the separation much more necessary. Of course, making this all the more difficult is the tangled web of relationships with other family members, but if you are clear about the motivation for separating, it will help you maintain your distance, and hopefully other family members will come to respect your choice and not feed into the dysfunction.

I must add, in the interest of full disclosure, that I could not have separated from my dad, as I have, without years of therapy. But for me it was really a question of moving forward with a healthy life, and it was just essential that I divorce myself from him all together. The black and whiteness of my situation was helpful; it's harder to separate if there are shades of grey involved. No matter what you do, there is loss and there are memories and hopes and longings that are never left behind. Best wishes for healing and peace

This is a hard situation but it sounds like it's time to change your relationship because you are prostituting yourself by holding back your feelings and barely making it through your time together. I would encourage you to share how you really feel, and if you can remove anger and judgment that would work best. Considering you ''don't want her in your life,'' would it not be a good opportunity for you to stand up for yourself and share what is real for you? It will be a good example for your children as well as set you free from a burden. Even if your children aren't present for the conversation, they will feel that stress alieviated from you and from their environment. (Many of us think that children don't pick up on subtleties like feelings, but they totally do!) Best of luck to you in staying strong and clear, and giving yourself what you know you need. I hope your sister can be calm and real when you speak with her. -Gloria

Hi, I broke ties with my brother for many years and he did not attempt to contact me much. We lived in separate parts of the county. Then he informed me that he was coming to my area and wantetd to see me. When I hesitated, he asked 'why.' I wrote hime a detailed letter which included all the reasons I did not feel comfortable seeing him. He accepted my input and I did see him briefly and have seen him at times over the years. However, I do set the boundaries that feel comfortable for me and specifically let him know what they are.

I encourage you to do/say/be what feels comfortable for you with regard to contact with your sister. Hopefully your family is insightful and can see through her attempts to 'stir up s**t.'

'I' messages and perhaps communication in the Center for Non- Violent Communication' style http://www.cnvc.org/ might be helpful. Stay focused on what you need and want, instead of what she's doing/saying. Best wishes in honoring your self. Sandy

I also have a ''toxic'' sister. We have gone for more than 15 years without contact. For years I overlooked her dishonest, cruel, unethical, illegal, immoral and embarrassing behavior, but she went too far when she decided to tell my 12-yr old flat out lies of an extremely disparaging nature about me. I suppose she thought I wouldn't find out?? My advice: stop communicating with her. You owe her no explanation and she wouldn't accept it, anyway. Eventually, she'll figure out that you've cut ties, but (I'm guessing) she also won't accept any responsibility for her role in killing the relationship. Don't give her a reason to respond to you or an audience for her ''side.'' You don't owe anyone else an explanation, either, but don't be surprised if people have a hard time with your decision. If you are ''depriving'' the cousins of a relationship, you are also protecting your children from her. /anon/

I have limited my exposure to a toxic sibling (now in prison) and know quite a few other people who have limited or cut off contact--usually for very good reasons. It's heartbreaking when someone from your own family is such a liability but it certainly does happen. If you know you need to limit contact, DON'T get guilt-tripped into betraying your own needs because she's ''family''.

IMHO, it's not a good idea to have a confrontation with your sister given that she is (a) completely self-centered (b) obsessed with insinuating herself into your life (c) good at looking good to the world and (d) backstabbing. An open confrontation just gives her more ammunition to draw other well-intentioned people into her web--so you'll get lots of well-meaning advice to be ''nicer to your poor sister'' and ''she means well'' and ''what's wrong with you.'' Treat her like a phony colleague at work: tell her it's a bad time to visit, or you're contagious, tell her you and your SO are limiting guests. If she tries to provoke you, remain calm and repeat your polite refusal. Please realize no guest has a ''right'' to visit your home, or a ''right'' to hear the reason why; you don't need ''a good reason'' to say no.

If you feel the need to make SOME effort towards maintaining a relationship, find a nice hotel with a pool and schedule a weekend vacation with the kids once a year--THEN invite her. (''Oh, sorry you can't make it!'') Or do a family summer camp where there are lots of activities with lots of people and suggest she join you. You get the idea--social events where there's lots to do besides socializing with HER. But she may be too big a pain in the ass to make that worthwhile.

As for the kids, they can keep in touch by chat, IM, email or snail mail. Encourage the kids to send cards and pictures.

I'm sure you'll still get second-hand flak (smile politely and shrug it off) , but most people will eventually catch on, if they haven't already, that she spends a LOT of time running you down and trying to draw them in.

It just goes to show that if blood is thicker than water, it's also a lot more dangerous. Genetics ain't everything! Anon

My sister is a serious pain in the butt and I have found great freedom in setting limits with her. It isn't easy and it has repercussions - but in the LONG term it is a very good thing. If I was you, I would involve a mediator (or therapist) and next time she visits - sit her down and tell her how you feel. Then, tell her what you want to do - limit to one visit a year - whatever it is that you are comfortable with moving forward. Then, let the storm hit - and in a year or two - everything will be different and you will have protected yourself from a toxic person. I hope this is helpful. Hang in there. Lisa

I feel for you. I truly believe that breaking ties with toxic people in our lives makes us stronger in the end. It is more difficult, I am sure, because this woman is your sister and you likely have childhood memories in common that you cherish. But now she is an adult and taking a toll on you emotionally. I really don't think that she will change, this is her way for whatever reason. I would urge you to speak to her formally about your feelings and consider breaking ties with her completely. It is also a difficult decision to make because your children will likely not see their cousins. I will tell you that I broke ties with a ''best'' friend who was toxic in much the same way you describe. She too had children, so the choice was difficult, but my life is now so much richer, free of those toxins that build up with the repetition of the same old habits that you instinctively know aren't right for you or your family. I will admit there was a void in my life for a time, where that friend and I used to exist. But now, several years later, I have built new relationships based more on choice rather than situation that are healthier all around. Here's to mutually satisfying relationships

Dear Sib: About two years ago, I was in the same situation as you find yourself in now, and I did break off my relationship with both of my siblings. It was a hard decision, in that my elderly parents bore the brunt of the results to some extent: they had only family get-togethers without their youngest child, son-in- law, and only grandchild to look forward to. My father turned 85 ten days ago with my sister, brother, and sister-in-law in attendance, and my family and me 3000 miles away.

My sibling relationships were toxic, and though I had gotten used to the abuse after 47 years, when my sister verbally abused my husband and daughter, and my brother sat by and said and did nothing, that was it for me. All of my life, my siblings were verbally, physically, and sexually abusive of me, and my parents did not protect me from them: in fact, they seemed to think that I was somehow at fault. Now in their 80s, I cannot expect my parents to change, and my brother and sister are not motivated to change (they also blame me for their behavior), so I had no choice but to make the change myself.

Frankly, not having to interact with them has mostly been a relief, and I do not miss having to work extra hard to find some common ground with them, and try to breech the distance between us by being trusting and forthcoming about myself.

Looking into the future, I cannot see myself reconciling with my sister -- ever -- but my brother and I may be able to heal the rift at some point. Right now, I am still enjoying the sense of peace that comes from not engaging with them. And my husband is very supportive, so I do not feel pushed to make any decisions until I am comfortable doing so.

I wish you all the best in making your decision. Your sister sounds like mine to some extent, and in her jealous rage, sees herself as the wronged party, and you the perpetrator. If you disconnect from that toxic relationship, keep in mind that others may not feel that your behavior is necessarily noble; they may see you as selfish for creating a rift in the family, after having taking your sister's crap for so long, thereby smashing the family's delusions of its own cohesiveness and ''normality.'' Whatever your decision, I hope that it brings you some peace of mind. Hang in there. Been there, doing that

Please, please do what's best for you, mentally and emotionally. If you're not comfortable being around her don't torment yourself OR your family. You don't owe her anything. Her issues are distorting your view and making you feel guilty. Follow your gut. It seems you already know what you want to do anyhow. Don't let your whole life revolve around her crap any longer. It's not fair to you or your family. So the cousins don't see each other but it's for a reason. Perhaps when they are older they can reconnect on their own. Both of my parents grew up with strained relationships with their siblings. They came and went from my life and it was odd to me as I grew up. My own relationship with my brother is strained. I did not grow up with good role models. I realize my brother and I are different. We weren't meant to be close or have a ''normal'' sibling relationship. It took time to accept that realization but I'm happier now. It's easier than having constant disappointments and problems.

If people in your family are truly rational and sane people, they will know it's not you but her causing problems. Life is too short for you to live with the constant anxiety of her next move. It's a bit of a grieving process AND coming to terms with her out of your life. With good support you'll be fine and happier. Good luck. anon

In a similar untenable situation, I partially broke ties with my parents due to similar issues. Their visits were causing great tension and stress in our home, and I found myself and my husband dreading spending time with them. In our case, their behavior was problematic and perhaps unintentional, so I tried to communicate my concerns in a compassionate, clear manner-- to no avail, despite the fact that I provided specific examples and made specific requests in a kind manner.

Finally I had to break it down to them that they make me extremely uncomfortable due to their behavior, that I've tried to communicate this in the past and my concerns and issues have gone unheeded, so that we need to take a break. It has been both painful and wonderful. Based on these experiences, I recommend that you be clear and direct with her that you do not enjoy her visits and that you do not wish to have a relationship.

The stuff about depriving cousins is a bunch of BS-- why in the world should we be expected to expose our children to toxicity if we can avoid it? I say that you should spend your time with people that you love, and people that you like, rather than people that make you feel awful, and that your kids will probably thank you for it! creating family a different way

You have excellent reasons for ending your relationship with her, and if only you & she were involved I would say go for it. However, it's not just about you two...you'll be depriving your kids of knowing their cousins, and I don't think that should be taken lightly. They have the opportunity to form bonds now that can last a lifetime. I didn't get to know any of my cousins, and now they are a huge, close-knit clan with kids of their own who all get to know each other. I wish my parents had seen, back then, how much value there could be in forging a relationship between us all. So I would say deal with her for your kids' sake...just don't tell her anything about yourself whatsoever. If she has no information, there are real limits to the damage she can cause. cousin-deprived

Like you said, if you confront her and cut ties, she'll bad-mouth you. If you don't confront her but still cut ties, she'll bad-mouth you. If you suck it up and continue seeing her a few times a year, she'll bad-mouth you. See where I'm going with this?

I have mostly cut ties with a sibling. I keep very limited contact but don't invite him into my life at all. It might be hard at first, but it gets easier. I assume your parents aren't in the picture? Will you have to deal with her at some point: family holidays, weddings, funerals, settling parents' estate? If you cut her out completely, it doesn't mean you won't have to deal with her at some point.

I favor being honest with her. What do you have to lose? Just tell her plainly and unemotionally that you have heard much of what she has said and that it is hard for you to be around her. And as such, you need to curtail the visits for now. That ''for now'' can extend indefinitely, but it leaves the option of reconcilliation open. Although, you sister sounds like another of my sibs who is so self centered as to be completely unself-aware, and therefore unable to really to the work necessary to change for the better.

You may have to do some upfront damage-control with your inlaws and other family members. Tell them you are going to talk with your sis about the way she treats you and that you are not going to be seeing her for a while. You don't have to bad-mouth her, but let them know it might get ugly from your sister's end of things and that you hope they keep an open mind and either hear your side of the story or just stay out of it.

As for your kids, that is really tough. My brother who I don't see much anymore is racist and has other charming personality traits. I tell my kids that his views are damaging and offensive, so I keep in touch a little bit but we just don't have him around so much.

I'm the most loyal, most familial person in my 4 sibling family. For this reason, it was really significant when I decided to break ties with my 2 older siblings. This was after years of communication and limit setting on my part about respectful behavior (asking them to not talk behind my back, gang up on me, snicker, etc.). I kept trying to communicate ad naseum because ''divorcing'' my family just seemed too deep, and would cost my son his aunt/uncle. But it got to the point where I energetically didn't care anymore. It was more important for me to only have people in my life who were respectful than to hang on to dead wood, especially given how very hard - and mostly maturely, I'd add - I tried for so many years. Guess what happened? Once they felt the truth of my limit (I had no gaming about it - there was truly no attempt to manipulate them; I was DONE), then both, independently reached out for heart to heart communication. It's worked great with one sibling (who truly owned his behavior and straight out, with integrity, promised to honor my requests, which were pretty damn basic) and 1/2 good with the other sibling (whose behavior is completely different, but didn't have the strength to own it, so my trust isn't there completely). So, there's my story. I get it - there is a time to make profound choices like these. Don't take divorcing your sibling lightly, and don't wait around for sudden miracles from your sibling either. A native american saying: Bow to no one, and let no one bow to you. Love, sister

I had to do that very same thing for almost similar reasons as you did. In my case our mother told me in a moment of weakness that she had never met a more selfish person than my sister. The tipping point for me was when my sister started belittling the sacrifices our long-deceased father had made.

It would be best that you tell her you are busy, and leave it at that. She will continue undermining you to your relatives whether you have it out with her or just make excuses. You won't be able to remove her from your life and still keep all the other relatives -- some may take sides, and some may remain neutral.

Many people may not understand the rationale behind cutting contact with a sibling. Everyone we know has tried, and continues to try to make things work with their family. It really is not all that easy. An informal study I conducted a while back to figure out how rare this might be was an eye-opener. All friends said things were fine with their siblings, or diplomatically switched the topic. Almost every stranger I have talked to had a story about a sibling they don't talk to, etc. So, the average may be somewhere in the middle, but from what I understand, it is not all that uncommon (but it is a taboo to admit it).

As far as kids, they will appreciate a calmer you more than their cousins.

Look forward to better days ahead.

Freeze her out. You can either stop responding completely, which, depending on the severity of her slander, is called for, or you could always be vague, saying ''Sorry, can't make it work this time around'', or ''Sorry, we're not up to it right now'' via email.

Never speak on the phone or answer any calls. Just quick, non-committal email responses to the first request in each go round. Absolutely ignore the follow-ups trying to get your reasons or guilting you into it. You responded once - don't get baited because that's how these people work! I find that the more contact these people get, the more they try to engage you. If you simply don't reply a few times, and when you do reply, you give them so little to go on, they have less they can use against you (if you give reasons, they will find a way to meet your objections).

Unfortunately, being upfront rarely creates positive results. Usually, it will become an all-out war, in which you, the relationship-ender, loses. I've found this with romances and friends, after first trying to be gentle and explain myself.

Remember that you don't owe her a reason: not now, not ever. And email-only makes it much easier to control the onslaught.

What a painful situation! And yet I still think some family ties just aren't worth the effort and the tears, especially if there doesn't seem to be any hope of change. And, strangely enough, since I consciously decided to no longer see or speak with my sister, I feel more compassionate toward her; I see that a self-respecting person doesn't act in disdainful and vindictive ways. I don't want to see my sister again, but I wish her well. (And I waste less time and energy feeling angry.) Mind you, it took decades to get to this point!

As for the cousins issue, I didn't see your post and don't know how old your children are and whether it would be appropriate for you to discuss this matter with them, but when they're older, you could always tell them that if they want to contact their cousins some day (college age?), they will be welcome to do so, as long as it's made clear that you don't want to be around your sibling.

Best of luck to you and your family. Melanie

You've already received a lot of great advice, but I wanted to chime in on another issue. In my case, the whole family (extended, too) is toxic: racist, angry, substance-abusing, screaming, cold. I have always felt uncomfortable at family gatherings, like I was born into the wrong family. As soon as I could (age 15), I left home. It's a little easier for me because I left Long Island at 17 and never moved back, so I don't have to make daily decisions about seeing them. Still, there are times when I see some of them and have to interact. It was an EASY decision to cut them out of my life, which I have done by ignoring. However, every few years, I get nostalgic (which mostly means that I wish I had a normal family), and I start to think that maybe they've changed. ''After all, it's bee a long time, and I have grown, so they must have, too. Surely, they now see how they mistreated me. Right?'' I initiate contact (because of funeral or special occasion), and then I am reminded that they have not changed at all. Then, I feel justified in my decision to avoid them again. I guess what I'm saying is to NOT expect that your sister will change simply because time has elapsed and you feel like you SHOULD have a relationship.

Adult Siblings' Wars

August 2008

My parents are anguished over the fact that my two brothers, my sister and I don't speak or see each other. We're all adults, one living in Morgan Hill, one in the Peninsula, one in the East Bay, and one in the North Bay. We all have our own homes and families. We simply have come to realize that we just can't get along with each other because of too much emotional baggage, slighted words and jilted actions. It breaks my heart to see my parents so destroyed but unfortunately they too have made their own contribution in us not speaking to each other. I wish things could get better but I know in my heart that when my parents pass on, we, as siblings will probably never see each other again. It's really a truly sad situation. I guess what I'm asking for is how can I make my parents feel better? I simply can't change what is. anon

I felt such sympathy for your posting. I have not spoken to my brothers and sisters in years. They hate me because I received the lion's share of my father's estate. My sisters both stole money from him and abused him verbally and emotionally. My family started to fall apart when my mother died in 2003 and became fully dysfunctional when my father died in August of 2007. You are fortunate that your parents are still living. Make the best of a difficult and visit them frequently. My father lived with my children and I. Every day was special. Do whatever you can to make your parents happy, right now. I miss my siblings put can't change their hearts, which are full of hate. Give your parents happiness today. It's the best gift to them.

How to make your parents feel better? Sounds like the only thing that might work is give them hope. How about this: you mentioned that they have contributed to the problem (can relate - my Mom would cut us down behind each other's backs and create competition and then moan about how sad it is to see the estrangement...blah blah blah). I finally confronted her heavily about her dynamic and when she really owned her part and began to make changes, I spoke with my siblings INDIVIDUALLY and told them how tired I was of back-biting and gossip Iand told them how it included our mother) and let them know I was only going to be in contact if the problems and hurts between us were ONLY between us. 1 of my 2 sibs agreed to this - my brother and I met -- alone, despite his insistence to meet at our Mom's house :)--, owned our roles, shared our hurt and have Really started over. Still kind of amazes me because I was DONE, baby, truly DONE before this. Now, when my mom still tries to drop a little back biting comment about my brother or his wife/kids, I admitedly resist the temptation to ask for more dirt details, and remind her what she is doing to her precious clan and remind her that she is hurting my trust with her. Key here is no longer being afraid of mama - shes just going to have to hear it from me every damn time she pulls it. She flinches but she no longer makes me bad/or mopes when I do this. So - maybe this isn't what you were looking for, but I kinda wonder: maybe you can help your parents by really being honest with them -consistently- about how they pull you apart from each other. Maybe if they get honest enough they'd be willing to try adult family therapy. - True understanding and full of hope for you all sister

Seriously? There's nothing you can do? Short of major abuse, I see no reason that 4 adults who live in close proximity to each other can't at least attempt a reconciliation. There are many mediators, etc. out there who can help. It's the bay area for god's sake... we have more specialists than patients. Want to make your parents feel better? Make an attempt to shed the baggage. ''slighted actions'' and ''jilted words'' are not enough to tear apart a family. Either there's some serious SERIOUS stuff going on in your family or there's a lot of pettiness. If it's the latter, it's time to give your parents what they really want: some attempt at forgiveness. They need to take part in it, too. Just b/c you don't live under the same roof doesn't mean that family therapy is unnecessary. anon

I was so surprised by the responses you received that I felt like I needed to chime in. Sometimes there really is *nothing* you can do to restore fractured family relationships and you need to take care of yourself by letting your parents know this. I have damaged relationships with both my half brother and my natural brother and, after many years of trying to resolve this for the sake of my parents and being further mistreated, I finally set a firm boundary (limited contact in one case, no contact in the other) and let my parents know. It was hard for them to accept this at first, and I am sure they hope and wish it would change, but it was the very best thing I could do for myself and my family, especially my child. I did not want my son to see an example of me putting up with outrageously abusive (verbal) behavior and I wasn't going to put him in that situation either.

I think sometimes you really do need to let go. For me, being a parent is a chance to give my child an example of making healthy choices. Not having a relationship with sick, abusive people is part of that. My son is older and he gets it now and even thanked me for the fact that we stopped seeing the especially abusive uncle a while back. No longer codependent