Getting Started on a Divorce

Parent Q&A

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  • I hate that I’m writing this inquiry.  My husband and I have two kids, and ever since the first child was born five years ago, he has been completely checked out.  I think my husband, having not been around kids, was clueless what being a parent would mean (though I’ll say he said before marriage he very much wanted a large family).  Without getting into great details, ALL of the burden is on me - both with respect to raising the kids and the household.  I literally do it all - I do all the kids forms, sign up for all activities, plan our weekends, buy them clothes and toys, clean their rooms, do their laundry, buy groceries, make breakfast, lunch and dinner, pack their bags for school, drop them off, pick them up, drive them to activities.  And I work just as much as my husband, and I make more money than him.  Initially I did it all because I was on extended maternity leave (big mistake doing it all even while on leave), but then when I went back to work it just all continued to fall on me.  I very much enjoy being a mom - I plan fun activities, I love going to kids birthday parties, etc.  My husband hates it all, and is rarely in attendance.  Throughout the years, I always was alone in a lot of events and it really hurt me to see other husbands/fathers just really enjoying parenthood (as hard as it can be).  Being around someone who does absolutely nothing - I have asked him to go couples therapy on 3 occasions - we did it twice but he then quits saying it’s stupid.  

    I’m trying to figure out next steps in my life.  I’m pretty miserable when I see him not doing anything and in particular him not being remotely appreciative of it.  

    Is it better to just separate and not get divorced? Is that better or worse?  I make somewhat more (and always made more), but because I do everything I always paid all the expenses and he has a large savings account (we don’t have a joint account). I want the kids - but am open for him to see them whenever he wants.  I can’t imagine a world where he would want the kids, he hates being a father (though I do worry about a situation where he may meet someone, became a “whole new man” and then want to take the kids … as we see in movies).  

    Is it better to get divorced?  What should my strategy be if I think it’s imminent? Is there anything I should be documenting now, lawyers I should be talking to now, etc? I always heard of the strategy of meeting with all the “top divorce lawyers first.” Do people really do that? 

    My main concern is the kids.  They are my life, and I want to make sure they are with me, and my husband can come and go as he pleases.  

    any advice would be appreciated.

    First I want to say you are not alone, so big hugs for all that you do and for shouldering this burden for so long.

    I am in a similar situation but the non-engagement is primarily due to his alcoholism. After way too many years of empty promises and my naivety, I am finally moving forward with divorce. One thing I will say (because someone pointed it out to me) is that of course your husband won’t change because you are doing it all and allow him to do whatever he wants. Who wouldn’t want that, especially if you are the one paying for everything. Resentment and contempt build up exponentially when your supposed partner literally does nothing other than earn a paycheck.

    Hang in there! 

    I talked to a therapist for about 9 months before I filed, and for me it was worth it to have clarity about the situation.  A couple months before I filed, I started talking to a lawyer. 

    I’m very sorry you’re in this position! My husband behaves somewhat like this (less severe though) and I have come to understand that it’s common and totally unfair and there’s probably not much you can do about it. It’s also quite common that once the wife files for divorce the husband suddenly wants to change, but it’s too late, so perhaps asking for separation first could help give him one last ditch chance to save the relationship. You sound like a great mom and deserve an equal partner. No legal advice, but his savings should be considered community property as long as they were acccumulated during the marriage

    I would highly recommend reading more about CA divorce law before making any decisions. Unless your husband has demonstrated abusive behaviors or other illegal behaviors he will by default have 50% custody in CA. He can chose to relinquish custody, but may have a different perspective on how much he wants to be a part of his kids' lives than you currently perceive. While you earn more it is unlikely that spousal support will be an issue, but any money earned while you were/are married is considered joint as well as any assets. It doesn't matter how you placed them into separate accounts. The difference in salary will influence child support payments if he choses to pursue that, but most couples decide on some method of splitting child related costs rather than inter-parent payments. Having recently gone through the process with young children I can tell you that the relief of not having to reside in an unhappy marriage is liberating (even though I wasn't the person who initiated the divorce and the driving factors behind separating differed from yours). However, the children experience a complete collapse of their world and it is crushing as a parent (in my case a father) to see the impact on one's kids. In my opinion divorce when one has kids should be a last resort utilized when you simply can't be the person you want to be and live the life to which you aspire within the framework of your marriage. If necessary consider going into it informed about CA divorce law, having talked to a few lawyers and deciding on which you would chose for representation if needed, and with the infrastructure in place to support the inevitable impacts on your children's emotional health. Also keep in mind that until your kids turns 18 you will still have to make all major parenting decisions in concert with their father so many of the issues of imbalance that you experience now will likely remain unchanged. I have chosen to remain anonymous in posting, but I wish you the best in this period and possible transition. Just know that many parents have gone through this and ultimately if you establish a stable, loving, and supportive household your kids will turn out okay (and you may find yourself a happier person and parent). Also, if your husband undergoes the transformation you described, consider how that may be good for your kids to have a stronger relationship with a more involved father over time.  

    If you get divorced, there's no way that your husband could take your kids from you.  At worst, you would get a 50/50 time arrangement.  However, if he's that disengaged he probably wouldn't want that anyway and would be ok with the traditional Wednesday night / every other weekend / two weeks in the summer situation.  As for whether you should get divorced, there's lots to consider so I recommend talking to a therapist if you aren't already.  My husband was a disengaged parent, although for him it was because he let his career take over his entire life, and like you I did absolutely everything even though I also worked.  If I got divorced I would have had to leave the bay area because I couldn't afford it on one income alone, and I loved my job and friends here so I stuck with it and just tried to accept the situation.  Now my kids are almost grown and I'm so grateful I had the opportunity to be really present throughout their childhood and we have a close relationship, whereas their relationship with their dad is strained.  He feels a lot of guilt for not being around more when they were little and missing out on so much. 

    You are brave to consider this early in your children's lives. I admire you for addressing the situation so calmly and thoughtfully. I say this as someone who is in the midst of bringing my divorce process to resolution.

    My situation was similar in that I was a professional in a leadership position when I had my children. My spouse was the one who wanted a family and we discussed him being the lead parent. That went out the window with the birth of the first. My spouse traveled a lot, and when he was home was absorbed in work or checked out. He'd play with the children when it was fun for him. I could not rely on any help from him in regard to home or family responsibilities, and he was highly critical of any outside support I found. He started making enough money for us to manage on one salary, so I unintentionally, and somewhat resentfully, became a stay-at-home parent. Complicating matters, our two children were very challenging to raise for reasons I won't get into.

    We separated shortly after our older child turned 18. We began the divorce process two years later, shortly after our younger child turned 18. Both expected it and have questioned me why we didn't divorce much sooner. I didn't begin to understand the impact of our relationship problems on the children until I heard this.

    I encourage you to educate yourself on divorce before making decision. Many high-quality, free, professional resources are available. Here are two to start with: Second Saturday and Collaborative Divorce California.

    There are many ways to divorce now. It's no longer a simple choice between battling it out in court or mediating. And, should you decide to move forward with divorce, you can take steps to protect your and your children's interests before initiating the process with your spouse. I wouldn't wish divorce on anyone. Even if both parties have best intentions for an efficient, amicable process, it's a painful, expensive process at best. Choose the process that best fits your circumstances and personal needs.

    I wish you well, and a happy future.

    You don’t need to document anything, just ask him in advance if you can completely leave money and custody out of the divorce agreement. That is, that you will take full custody with flexible visitation and no one asks for any child support or alimony from the other. That worked for me and my ex and now 20 years later we all still get along pretty well, even though the judge was skeptical at the time.

    This sounds awful, yes you should consider divorce. I see not benefits to a separation without divorce for you... only benefits for him (access to your assets, etc.)

    One thing you should consider is discussing this with him. Seek input from a therapist as a starting point. Then you need to tell him, if X doesn't happen I will need to leave you. It does not sound like you are co-parenting. It sounds like you are the parent and he is your roommate. That said, many men have a tendency to exaggerate their contributions to parenting so he may feel that he is doing enough. Also you are definitely enabling him by doing everything. Perhaps you need to help him feel comfortable stepping up and it may be possible that you're doing it all gave him the impression that you don't think he's capable and this is a viscous cycle. Again, speaking with a therapist is where I would start.

    FWIW I argue with my co-parent daily about similar issues but it's nothing to the extent of what is described here. I don't think I could tolerate this.

    I went through something similar and the one thing I want to point out is that if there’s any chance you will end up getting divorced, it’s worth talking to a lawyer sooner rather than later. This is because in your situation (likely you will owe spousal support), if your marriage has lasted fewer than ten years, it will mean much less alimony you’d end up paying him. This is more practical advice, rather than trying to assess the overall question about whether you should consider separation or divorce. I consulted someone at 9.5 years, and the attorney didn’t tell me this. I ended up making the decision to divorce after 11 years, and then found out this unfortunate piece of information. It ended up costing me years of alimony as our marriage was then considered a “long term marriage “. 

    My heart goes out to you.

    Please consider this in the spirit of brainstorming rather than as wisdom, as I have had a much better experience than you describe, and have never been divorced.

    Your husband may be missing in action as a parent, but what would life be like for your kids if you initiate a separation? 

    When they are with you, they know you care about them and will enjoy the things that are fun for them.  If you do a legal divorce, governmental mediation will default to a split custody arrangement, unless this guy is willing to relinquish parental rights. How likely is that?

    If the kids are being shuttled back and forth between your house and his, it will be stressful for them. What if someone remarries or moves out of state?  I have watched my divorced friends spend miserable years driving long distances because their ex moved four hours' drive out the Bay Area,

    If you are split up you will have no control over what goes on when they are with their father.

    Would it be possible for you to continue to live with your husband,  but hire a nanny or assistant to do some of the work you are now handling?  The cooking, perhaps? If you could focus on earning money and doing the fun stuff with your kids, would that take enough pressure off?

    Divorce could be very expensive for you personally. Divorce has been shown to be detrimental to children, affecting them as adults.

    Unless your spouse is abusive, perhaps there are ways to make it work without splitting up.  And there are cases where fathers who can't relate to younger kids get more enthusiastic as they are in the golden years of elementary school and beyond,

    Wishing you all the best.

    If you are done with the marriage, and it sounds like you are, I think you should be looking at divorce, not separation. But you need to educate yourself about divorce in California. The default in California is joint physical and legal custody, and from what I understand it is very difficult to get another outcome unless there is abuse, or substance abuse, or some other health/safety issue. Of course, that assumes your husbands WANTS it. My ex was not very engaged on the day-to-day activities and planning and decision-making, but he loves our daughter. When we split, he struggled with being a single dad 50% of the time. He stepped up; your husband might be happy to cede time to you.

    On the financial side, California is a community property state, with no-fault divorce. Because you make more money than he does, you might have to pay spousal support, and if he did want/get 50% custody, child support as well. It wasn't clear how MUCH more you make than he does. But all that savings he built up because you were paying the kid expenses? That's 50% yours, because it's community property.

    Do talk to a lawyer, who can guide you on what to expect under California law. Do document your assets. Maybe he's not sleazy enough to try to hide assets, maybe he is. Maybe talk to a financial planner specializing in divorce to assess your financial impacts and get your ducks in a row for the financial split. Do your best to make the process amicable rather than contentious, because a contentious divorce is bad for you, bad for the kids, and enriching to the lawyers. My ex and I used a mediator; I don't know if that's realistic for you. Having a lawyer and using a mediator aren't mutually exclusive; a mediator for the primary negotiations to keep things on an even keel as long as everyone is acting in good faith; the lawyer is helpful for reviewing documents and making sure that your husband IS acting in good faith.

    I am working with Hello Divorce and have had a really great experience so far (beginning stages). You can sign up for a free phone consult on their website.

    I would also suggest finding others in a similar boat to get support from—following #divorce and #narcissist on TikTok has been therapeutic, inspiring, and eye-opening for me. 

    PS your kiddos are very fortunate to have such an awesome, engaging, kick-ass role model mama! 

    I agree with the suggestion about talking to a therapist.  Also, is couples' therapy an option?  While you consider your next steps, I would suggest doing what you can to have him contribute to household expenses.

    I'm not divorced myself, but I'm married to a divorced dad and work in a profession where I work with a variety of families daily, so I may have a different perspective to offer. First, from my experience, California courts tend to start from an assumption of 50/50 custody. They'll deviate from that if both parties agree or there are extenuating circumstances (for example, a parent moves too far for this to be practical), but unless a parent is abusive, it's generally best for the kids to have strong, ongoing, equal relationships with both parents. Second, I've known MANY uninvolved dads pre-divorce who will fight tooth and nail for their kids. For most, divorce (and the thought of losing their kids) gives them the kick in the pants that they needed to step up; granted, for some, it's a desire to win it take something from their ex. So his desire for his kids may surprise you one way or another. Your idea of dad just coming and going when he pleases is neither realistic in most cases nor best for the kids. 

    This isn't exactly advice either way, but I suggest you strongly consider the likelihood that if you divorce, your kids will spend half of their lives with their dad. You cannot make sure they are with you if you get divorced. If your only concern was having your kids all the time, the solution is the status quo. Of course that's not your only concern, so you weigh your current misery against your desire to have your kids with you. Is your misery really *only* him not being involved with the kids, otherwise he's a great husband? If that's the case, either you'll get your way and have your kids all the time, with him still not being involved- so no change; or they spend a significant amount of time with him without you-a change it sounds like you don't want. I'm guessing there's more to it than that, hence the need to weigh your happiness against your desire for having your kids full time.

    My one piece of advice is, if at all possible, to divorce amicably, even avoiding court (coming to an agreement together then having a lawyer or a lawyer for each of you help write up the documents). Divorce will have an impact on your relationship with your husband, your bank account, your life, and most importantly your children's mental health; conflict and court battles make all of that worse.

    Start seeing a therapist for you!  Not couples therapy.  And if you don’t gel with the person move on and look for another person. They will help bring clarity to you for your needs.  

    I hear your frustration and exhaustion. I am in a very similar situation. I make double my spouse's salary and work day and night and on weekends. I parent twice as much as my spouse. I am the master of the family calendar, appointments, plan all activities and meals, laundry, dishes, clean, and procure all necessities. Does anyone else pay attention to how we're running out of toilet paper? Nope! Just me! I am trying to get my kid, who is older now, to help more and the kid is old enough to start pointing out that my spouse doesn't do as much. When child said, "it's not fair. daddy didn't clean up, why do I have to?" I saw guilt and dread on husband's face. I took that opportunity and had a heart to heart conversation about how spouse needs to step up and be a role model for the child. My husband has depression and he's introverted. What I have realized (after many therapy sessions) is that he does love and care deeply about our child and wants to be a good father. However, his way of parenting and spending time with the kid is different from me. I like to take the kid to the park, the zoo, beach, hiking, biking, walks around the neighborhood, do gardening, craft projects, set up playdates, etc. Husband likes to watch movies, play video games, read books, do puzzles and play board games at home. I have observed that when I throw my hands up and ask him for help, he will help. But, it needs to be very clear that I am absolutely incapable of doing the task. When we were teaching our child to swim, I took the child to classes but kid was not progressing. I took kid to recreational swimming but that wasn't doing it either. I resented my husband for seeming not to care about the child's swimming which is such an important life skill. After the child nearly drowned, I told my husband that I cannot teach my child to swim but as parents, we have to make sure that the child doesn't die from drowning. He stepped up and asked for my help in finding a place for him to take the child to swim. I applauded him for identifying the area where he needed help (logistics of finding a venue and time) and for stepping up to do what he's good at doing (teaching our kid a new skill). He felt very accomplished and was very happy that he was able to do this. I acknowledge that I enable my husband's natural tendency of not doing anything, because I'm a Doer. My therapist has been working with me to help me figure out how to get my husband to pick up bits and pieces and "train" him to do more. We also tried a couple's therapy but it didn't work. I think my husband needs to work out his own issues before he can come to the couple's therapy but he won't do his own therapy. Because I identified that the first priority is for the child to have both parents in the house, I have redefined our marriage as a co-parenting and house-sharing friendship. Romance is long gone. Neither expects or requests any physical aspect of marriage. I wonder what our marriage will be when the child has left the nest. i strongly recommend a therapy for yourself and a couple's therapy, if you can get your spouse to join. After talking with your therapist, if you are sure about a divorce, start talking with a divorce attorney and start planning. 

    What a painful situation.  I wanted to share some thoughts if you are not sure of separating yet - please don't interpret this like I am blaming you for the very difficult situation, because this is coming from a place of wanting to help YOU and your family, and I am sharing in case this might be helpful in some small ways.  Reading between the lines of your post, I wonder if your husband feels a bit pushed out by your love of parenthood.  It sounds like you do so much and do it very well.  I wonder if there may be some "maternal gatekeeping" involved.  Maybe your husband doesn't hate parenting, but has different expectations of it or a different style than you.  For example, I consider myself a loving, involved mom but I don't enjoy other kids' birthday parties.  I wonder what his idea of a good weekend would look like?  Maybe he hasn't felt like he's had room to figure that out because many activities were already planned.  I can't even imagine how resentful you must feel from doing it ALL.  What would happen if you stopped?  For example, if you sat down and told your husband that you can't keep going like this, and told him from now on he has to do x, y, and z.  And then you did not step in.  Would he step up?  I'm sure there would be big bumps in the road, but if you didn't intervene, would he figure it out?  If you left for the weekend, would you come back to the kids happy & healthy?  I realize I don't know most of the details here - like how you know he "hates" (a very strong word) being a father.  But I do wonder if maybe a horrible dynamic has become entrenched where you are super mom and he feels like whatever he does is inadequate so he's given up.  You also mentioned that your kids are your life - I wonder if maybe there is some resentment from him that once the kids were born, they became everything to you and there wasn't a place for him anymore.  I wonder if you could pursue therapy yourself, since it sounds like he is not interested. I am sharing these ideas because from your post it wasn't clear that you were 100% sure about separating.  In addition to being a parent myself (and we have in common that I make more money than my husband), I have also observed the family dynamics in well over 100 families that I provided childcare to over many years as a babysitter / au pair / nanny.  Anyway, I hope there is something in here that might be helpful.  Best wishes to you and your family.  

    Do not jump into divorce. Ever. Unless you want to burn money and raise hell. As an attorney I can tell you they will take your money without a full assessment of what’s best for you. 
     

    Sounds like your husband has not truly been held accountable and confronted by you or he’s a total monster and you’ve been there too long already. If he feels entitled to end therapy or not try to improve as you describe he must not appreciate the consequences. You need to make sure he understands before leaping to separation or divorce. 

    Husband, father and attorney here, more like you than your husband in my relationship. I feel I contribute more and resent her. But I’m messy and like inappropriate Instagram photos :) My wife is the dominant angry one and we see therapy for her anger. I’m not assertive enough because arguing with her always results in attack. 

    First try to confront him to the point he admits the situation is bad. Next consider just staying with friends/fam or short term rentals. Dip your toes in separation.

    For your own sanity and to just be able to move on with life, I would suggest moving forward with divorce. It sounds like there's not much hope - you say you are miserable and that he will not participate in therapy. You did not say to what extent you have made him aware of your discontent with doing it all and his lack of engagement with the family and related responsibilities, but I assume you have let him know. If not and you really want to give it one more try, you could get into individual therapy to see if there are ways you could communicate your needs better. Does he know you are thinking of separation/divorce? Unless he is violent, I would suggest you start to discuss it now, in case there's an end game scenario where he can wake up and realize the err of his ways.

    Barring all that, he will most likely be entitled to 50% custody, although I wouldn't worry about it too much at this point as it sounds like he won't want that. And if he ever does want that, he would likely need to do a step-up plan in which his time with the kids would increase gradually since they would need to get used to it if you have more custody initially.  Men who are not into parenting usually only try to get more custody time in order to avoid paying child support, but if you make more money you can likely take that concern off the table for him. 

    In terms of assets and his savings account, California is a community property state so most everything is generally considered to be joint assets - meaning his savings account is half yours (unless he came into the marriage with certain assets or has inherited money since you got together). Be aware that if your income is significantly higher, you may need to pay him child support (if he decides to do 50% custody) and if you've been married over 10 years you may need to pay him spousal support if he requests that. You would be wise to speak to an attorney sooner than later - it doesn't have to be the "best" attorney, but schedule consultations with a few to find someone who you have a good rapport with and who you can trust to make this process as smooth as possible. 

    Finally, if this is not a high conflict divorce, you can use a mediator (and still consult with your own attorney). Again, just try to find someone good as the process will go along much better if you get someone who is skilled at it. 

    Good luck. The kids will be fine and probably better that they see you happier. Even if he takes the kids a couple nights a week, it'll give you a chance to recharge your batteries and you'll not be carrying his dead weight. Single parenting might actually be easier and less stressful for you than the situation you're in with your marriage. 

    I'm so sorry you're going through this.  I'd recommend you speak to a lawyer before talking to your husband.  They may advise you to take some time over the months preceding a separation so that you put yourself in a better position to have your husband begin to pay his fair share of the family expenses post separation and to begin to set a record or get his admission or agreement in writing that he has not been paying his fair share.  He may make a play for custody just to get you to fold on the economic front so he doesn't have to give you your fair share of his savings / pay child support, etc. so you want to put yourself in the best position before you make mention of your plans to him.  Good luck to you and your kids and good for you for taking a step to improve your wellbeing. 

    I think you have plenty to lose and little to gain in divorce. He would likely get halftime custody, so you would see the kids less. And since you make more, you would probably owe him money every month. If you want to make sure that the kids are with you, stay married. 

    You pay all the expenses? That seems wrong. If you don't contribute 50/50 to the household, you should both at least be contributing in proportion to your incomes. Set a time, sit own together, and discuss finances. I think if he contributes more financially, you will feel a little better. 

    Then you need to work on yourself. You say you are miserable seeing him doing nothing. He is still going to do nothing if you divorce. Just imagine, He will be be watching tv or playing video games during his time with the kids. That is the likely scenario. So see a therapist, or make an attitude adjustment. You can't force him to help, so you need to become philosophical about him. 

    And just enjoy the kids. 

    First, I just want you to know that you are not alone and that you have a community rooting for you.

    I'm a lawyer, but not a family lawyer, so please take my perspective with that in mind. 

    I think your first step is finding out whether your husband would want 50/50 custody if you were to divorce. You sound miserable, but so does he. It's possible that there is a workable outcome for you both, where you get nearly all of the custody and as a result, make minimal spousal support payments (if any). Unfortunately, the only way to find out this information is to have a conversation with him. A facilitated conversation with a therapist might be your safest bet. I know he doesn't want to go to therapy, but he may agree if its for the purpose of arranging a mutually-agreeable path forward.

    I disagree with those who say that divorce should be avoided for the emotional toll it takes on the kids. All of my friends with divorced parents say that they wish their parents had done it sooner and that it was the fighting that harmed them, not the separation. The best case scenario for your kids is that they grow up with happy parents who are living fulfilling lives, even if those lives are separate. It would be ideal if their father would be a loving and involved parent, but that is outside your sphere of control. 

    The money he made during the marriage is half yours. If you have been paying all of the bills and he has not been contributing, he may owe you quite a bit of money in a divorce.

    Making sure you have a good marital settlement agreement is key to preventing him from changing his mind later in life. There is always a possibility he convinces a court to revisit your agreement and award 50/50 custody. But the longer the kids are doing well in your care, the less likely a court will be to modify the agreement. 

    As far as meeting with all the top divorce lawyers, the Bay Area is too big to do that. No one has the time or money to meet with that many lawyers. And it sets the stage for a highly contentious divorce. A high-conflict divorce is a nightmare for all involved. 

    Best of luck to you. 

  • I'm a woman about to start the divorce process. I'm looking for a mediator, a lawyer to consult with before and then after to look over the mediation agreement, and a financial planner to consult beforehand about financial needs, as well as after to create a budget and future plan. We're trying to divorce amicably, though we may encounter some potholes over money (I have and make less money than him). Does anyone have any recommendations?

    First, I'm sorry to hear you are starting the divorce process. No matter how amicable you intend to be, divorce is a difficult process. Take good care of yourself during this time.

    Second, I am also a woman and started the divorce process early this year. The power and money dynamic in my situation is quite unbalanced. You might look into the collaborative divorce process. Search for the collaborative practice group in your county for more information, including how to register for a free workshop that will cover all of the various methods by which one can divorce. Here are a couple of links for more information: https://collaborativedivorcecalifornia.com, https://www.collaborativepr….

    I find the collaborative process to be supportive and true to its name. I'm early in the process, so we'll see how it turns out. Each party has their own lawyer, and the lawyers agree to work toward a solution that feels fair to each party. A neutral financial professional serves for both spouses, keeping financials highly transparent. My spouse and I chose to work with a neutral coach (typically each spouse has a coach) to cut down on costs and because my spouse accepts my desire for the support of a coach but does not want one himself. While the coach is a trained mental health provider, they do not provide therapy in this role. Rather, they help identify and address areas where either party might get stuck emotionally, so that the process can keep moving forward in a healthy way.

    My spouse and I chose to go the collaborative route to better lay the ground work for some semblance of family life moving forward. We'd like to be able to be together comfortably during our children's major life events. Yet, we have complicating factors regarding young adult children who are financially dependent on us that could be very messy and painful if not handled thoughtfully. These factors would not be addressed, or even considered, in mediation or litigation. 

    I wish you calm during, and peace after, this difficult time.

    Hi,

    I recommend looking at East Bay Collaborative Practice - https://collaborativepracticeeastbay.com/.

    They have some great resources available on their site. I recommend attending the divorce options class to start.

    I highly recommend Sherry Peterson. Her office is in Pleasanton. 

  • I've spent a few decades trying to make this work, and I am confident now that divorce is the right thing for us. I've covered all my bases. My husband seems surprisingly unperturbed by the idea, which is one more indication that I've really wasted my time here. We still have a few more years of school to deal with, so while we're working on transition, I'd like to make sure I'm covering my bases legally and financially, and doing right by the kids. If I were independently wealthy, I would have figured out how to do this years ago.

    I'm not entirely sure what my husband is capable of, so I need to be able to remain anonymous for now. He's very resentful, and everything, of course, is all my fault, at least in his mind. We visited more than our fair share of therapists, and I finally recognized his pattern of "See? the therapist is trying to tell you there's something wrong with you, and you need to change, just like they said." (Not an actual quote but, sadly, not making that up, either.)

    We don't need a therapist. I need excellent advice for how to protect myself and kids between now and whenever we finally do this, which could take a few years. I don't want to screw him over; I just prefer not to have to pay more than my fair share, if possible (although at this point I recognize that I may just lose more in the process, and God knows I won't be able to afford a decent home... not that we have a great home now).

    A mediator is fine. I'm not interested in somebody who knows how to suck the other party dry. I could definitely see starting with a book or something (I should go look at Nolo Press right now!). 

    Ideally, someone can also give me excellent advice for how to make this as easy as possible for kids, one of whom is extremely sensitive. And I know that most kids, including my own, would greatly prefer if we just figure out how to stay together, but I can't make that work, not without feeling like I'm slowly dying--but I want to be there for the kids! I already feel bad enough about this. I assume it's better to wait until at least high school is done, although I also remember a friend of mine who felt completely let down when she learned that her parents were divorcing as soon as she went off to college. So there's no good way to do this that I'm aware of. 

    I suspect that my husband will be very happy to end it. Ideally, we can get along better if we're apart. I've certainly been doing my best to maintain a friendly stance with him, and I don't even bother to mention most of the crap he sends my way. I'm not perfect, so the sarcasm sometimes comes out of my mouth too, though. I realize too that kids will always love both parents regardless, so I also don't want to dump on them. Kind of a balance between "you're dad has treated me poorly, that's why we're splitting up," and the generic but unsatisfactory "we just believe we will get along better if we aren't together anymore." I don't even know how to negotiate holidays and the like. I'm not opposed to still doing things as a family. There's no other man for me now, but I'd like to be open to it in the future. (Don't know what his situation is, honestly, but I wouldn't be surprised to find that he's already halfway out the door with someone else. He's not a very honest person.)

    Thank you all so much!

    I am 53 and my parents divorced when I was 20. Divorce is hard on the kids no matter what age they are. My three siblings and I are only now coming to terms with some issues, 33 years later. That being said, divorce may be the best solution for a difficult situation, and so the age of the kids should not be a factor in deciding when. Please don't talk badly about your ex-spouse to your kids even if you think you are right. Make sure you and your ex-spouse are on the same page in terms of raising your kids. Don't use your children as pawns. The best thing you and your ex-spouse can do for your kids is have a cordial relationship. If one of you remarries... well, that's a whole other topic. 

    Have the moderator give you my contact info- I think talking to someone who has been there will be helpful 

    [Note from moderator: by clicking on the user name, you can contact the person who has posted]

    Getting Divorced Without Ruining Your Life by Sam Margulies is a good place to start. The book talks in depth about money and children, which are obv the two most fraught topics in divorce. When you're ready to start mediation and co-parenting counseling, I would recommend Dr. Tim Bigalke who is located in Berkeley. Don't let his messy office fool you, like it did me, he is extremely skilled at mediating and diffusing emotional tension in the room so you can move on and actually have the space to talk about the important things, like how to best parent your children going forward. His expertise does not go into finances much, so you may want to get a lawyer/mediator for financial advice, but don't be tempted to go down the court route (and it will be tempting, esp if you are the one with money to lose)! Give your all to mediation before traveling down the ruinous path of lawyers. I think lawyers can definitely have a healthy place in all this, but it's rare. I obviously don't know your situation in depth, but generally speaking, if you can get even some cooperation from your ex, keep working things out in mediation. It will definitely take some time and a lot of patience, car sobbing and "serenity now" chanting, but the amount of money and emotional energy you'll save by not using a lawyer is well well worth it. Best of luck to you, and my heart really goes out to you. It's terrible and horrific at first, but it can get better quickly if you have the right support, and I think Tim can be one valuable resource. 

    You might find what I've posted before on this topic in the archives, but as a starter, I recommend this Divorce Options workshop to learn about a wide range of ways to do this in a supportive and neutral setting (pretty cheap):

    https://collaborativepracticeeastbay.com/explore-other-divorce-options/

    Wow! I am pondering exactly the same thing! I have been counting down the years. Got to make it to 10, then another 10-15 for the children. I went jnto grief and started fantasizing about winning  the lottery so I could just take the kids and go.Then I got to the Oh Hell No stage of  kids be damned, no way will I waste another moment in this marriage.  Now I am being pragmatic and trying to figure out what exactly it will take to be able to support myself and my kids on my own. That’s the kind of freedom I want. So first, I’m meeting a financial adviser who can walk me through the steps and help me crunch enough numbers to know whatI’ll need to make. I have been putting out feelers to find out how to morph my career into high gear to meet those marks and get a good guesstimate of the tine frame for getting there. And finally, I will eventually consult with a divorce atty to find out what strategy I will need to get out. Now, instead of 10-15 years, I think I can get it down to 3 or 4 years if I hit the ground running. Oddly enough my husband holds little sway. That light died years ago, so haven’t thought about what he’d do nor do I care, so I just prepare for worst case. Hope this helps!

    My heart goes out to you. I am sorry you are going though this very hard time.

    I empathize with you.  My situation is different: after surviving in a deeply dysfunctional way for years and discussing divorce head on, my husband and I have decided to get to a healthier place first.  I don't know if we'll stay together long-term or sever in a better way, but I'm grateful for change.

    I want to share with you a few thoughts:

    1. I started laying specific plans for short and long-term separation. In addition to working with an excellent individual therapist, I started figuring out options for work / finances, living situation (possible move out of state), talking with divorced friends, getting references for and interviewing lawyers. I felt calmer feeling I had some control over my future, and a path out even if exceedingly difficult.  I considered the children, but put myself first thinking, if I can be ok, I'm better prepared to help them be ok.

    2. I started giving myself "deadlines", and communicating to my husband in a calm and non-threatening way, if we cannot come together and work out a plan for "x", I have no choice but to do "y" - addressing immediate physical and mental heath concerns that could not continue. "Y" not being the big bomb of divorce, but, for example, taking one teen away for a period of time to give everyone a break from the intense stress.  Interestingly, upon our return, my husband was finally able to work with me toward a long-term solution to a significant part of the stress in a meaningful way.  We started working with an excellent relationship therapist who is helping immensely with our communication.

    3. We worked with a family therapist. In speaking with the kids individually, both asked if divorce was imminent.  We had never spoken about divorce with, or had huge blow-outs in front of them, but kids get what's going on.  Anxiety runs high in both; they felt better having a facilitated, supportive, open forum to talk.  They were less stressed about the idea of a divorce once they faced it as a real possibility.  They also became more away of their parts in the family dynamics.

    4. I want to share an anecdote of a friend, in a similar, but different situation.  After years of a tumultuous home life, her highly sensitive, only child teen came to her and said that she didn't need to wait to divorce his dad, he would be fine with it now.  She had never spoken to him about divorce, although she planned to do so once her teen left home.  That was almost two years ago.  Mother and son are in a much healthier place, looking forward to their future and whatever it may bring.

    Takeaway:

    Seek out supports to get in a healthier frame of mind.  Therapists are often one of the critical supports, but they are not all created equally - seek out the best that work for you.  Surround yourself with friends who can support you calmly without trying to solve your problems for you, and family members who are nonjudgmental.

    Your teens likely know more than you think they know. If supported, will be ok if they have confidence they are loved and will be in a healthier place.  

    Consider reading "The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work", whether you stay together or not.

     Take care.

    I've been talking with both mediators and lawyers to get the lay of the land.  Mediators will give free 15 minute consultations, but it's usually a 45-1hr rate for lawyers. My impression is that mediators, because they're focused on being a neutral party, aren't really cut out to deal with narcissists and manipulators. They're strong on interpersonal skills but not always up to date on all aspects of family law.

    If you anticipate any conflict with your spouse, I advise consulting an attorney as well as a mediator. I consulted with Hannah Sims, an aggressive litigator, hoping to get the straight story on likely outcomes if I ever went to court.  She did just that, ended up advising me to go the mediation route, and gave me some strategic insights on how to handle my relationship with my coparent in order for me to reach my goals. She's Machiavellian, but I needed that reality check because I tend to be too earnest and invested in playing nice. I walked away feeling empowered and having a better sense of what I was navigating.

  • As the title says, I could use some advice on separating from a spouse with a serious anger management problem. While our marriage has been on a downward slide for a while, it's gotten really bad recently, and our fighting is upsetting our daughter (age 7). Please believe me when I say that I've tried to get him to go to counseling, tried making it work for her sake and tried to discuss our issues with him, all to no avail. I am not blameless here, but I am so unhappy and I can tell he is too.

    I know there's no way to avoid this being a painful process, but I'd like to know how to best go about it for her sake if nothing else. This is not one of those situations where after the initial shock wears off, we'll be able to tell our kid about it together in a calm fashion at a later date; in fact I may need to be ready to get out of the house when I tell him. But when I look at everything that I need to figure out, even in the short term, I just panic and put it off (e.g. his reaction, who gets to stay in our flat, temporary housing, long term housing in the SF rental market, can we switch schools, can we move out of SF if needed, etc.). I have no family in the Bay Area, so moving in with my family is not an option.

    I have made sure I have some cash sitting for things like a rent deposit and a car, and I also have a few leads on attorneys to speak with. I'd love to hear from others on how they got through the initial separation from a volatile spouse. Did it turn physical (there's been no DV here but I fear there's a first time for everything)? Is there anything you'd do differently? Did it take very long for you to find a place to stay with room for your kid? Are there support networks that have helped outside of your own friends? All input would be very much appreciated. I've put this off for much too long and know that this move will be painful, but necessary.

    As alone and overwhelmed as you may feel, you are moving in the right direction. 

    Here is a good place to start:  https://www.womenshealth.gov/violence-against-women/get-help-for-violence/index.html.  They have a link on making a safety plan, and a hotline that is supposed to connect you to local resources, plus other useful information.

    Assuming you are in Alameda County, I found these links:

    http://icwclaw.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Alameda-County-Family-Violence-Resources.pdf

    https://www.domesticshelters.org/ca/oakland/94612/alameda-county-family-justice-center.

    And for Contra Costa: http://www.contracostazt.org/resources/.

    I would strongly recommend you guard your privacy very carefully, since your husband is volatile and unpredictable.  That also includes your electronic footprint.  Find some safe places (friends?) where you can stash resources (keys to safety deposit boxes and a new mailbox, a pre-paid phone, a pre-paid credit card, emergency clothing, etc.).  Find a way to make your credit record inaccessible to anyone but you.  Your cash stash should be where your husband can't find out about it (perhaps a new bank?) and think about how you'll receive the statement.  Change safety questions.  Delete your cell phone call and text history; change passwords, change settings so it shuts off right after use; if you use social media, look at ways to shore up your privacy.  Consider switching to a different browser and using a different search engine than the one you usually use.  On the computer,  delete your browsing history, cookies, automatic passwords, etc. 

    And make contact (apart from your husband's knowledge) with friends and family--you need emotional support as well.

    I feel for you and wish you and your family well.

    This is hard. Everyone's story will be different.  It is 4+ years since I was in your shoes, and my experience is "it gets better."  For what it's worth:

    - I started therapy to get help deciding - scary, but I couldn't bear any more years of limbo. It took me only 2-3 sessions to be sure - I think I just needed "permission". But the good thing was then I had support for the hard work that came after.

    - With my therapist's support, I started breaking the ice on the topic, with the kids and with my spouse (separately). My spouse was very upset and blames me for "ruining his life" but was not violent.  My natural inclination was not to share what I was planning, but it ended up being hard but good to foreshadow it and not spring it on him/them. Your situation may differ.

    - I went to a Divorce Options workshop, which was very helpful for identifying the different paths (pros/cons). http://www.collaborativepracticeeastbay.com/explore-other-divorce-optio…

    - I convinced my spouse to go the mediation route, since it was cheaper (and I had hopes it would improve the chances of us having a decent relationship after - hard to know if it helped much on that front in our case)

    - To try to save cost on mediation we had a few sessions of couples counseling (but I made it very clear patching it up was not an option - it was supposed to be neutral ground to work on mediation topics).  It didn't really work out that way, but it was helpful to me to have someone else call him on his anger, to name the impact it had.  If you're worried about telling him, maybe consider doing it in this context just for moral support?

    - The mediator convinced us to stay put (not move) until we had a few sessions to understand budget, etc.  In the end the mediator helped us craft an option for the house we owned that neither of us knew was possible, and which lent stability to our kids lives.  Those 4 months of living together while we all knew we were divorcing were horrible, but they did end. Again, having my therapist for support (including a reality check on when to call the police) helped a lot.  The mediation was very hostile and the mediator almost quit working with us because my spouse was so awful.

    - When we finally moved out it was probably the happiest day of my life - I could finally start to build a peaceful life.

    - Even now our contact (relating to the kids - otherwise we'd have none) is hostile sometimes, slightly unpleasant more often, but on rare moments actually collaborative.  I go to school events and for the sake of my kids say hi or sit by him and he doesn't even acknowledge that I am there. It's hard to take the high road, but we have our own life now, and that makes everything worth it. I can't believe how many years I put up with an emotionally abusive relationship.  It was when I started seeing its harm on my kids that I realized I had to act. It was very difficult to do, and I felt a lot of shame, but my only regret now is not doing it earlier.

    - I had a really hard time telling people, but one of the first friends I told said "let your friends support you", and so I made a list of those friends and kept it posted on my wall at work and it encouraged me to not feel alone.  Anger can be toxic.  Don't be afraid to ask for help.

    I have a friend that just got out from this same situation, husband was verbally abusive and really mean, the best you can do is have everything ready to move including court day for temporary custody. write what you want in your child custody, days you want to have them, what holidays you want, who picks up from school, so all that is in court because the way you describe him he will use all that to bother you and if you have all that on paper signed by a judge you can take him to family court and the judge will bring him to reality very fast. I would start renting an apartment at the same time that I ask for the court day and supoened him the day you move. Write a nice letter for him explaining why you are doing everything this way. Sending you strengths

  • How do I move on?

    Apr 25, 2017

    Even writing this is difficult. I don't know how to start. I have been with the father of my children for 12 years.The past two years we have slept separately. This weekend I felt assaulted by him when he got in my face. Our daughter was throwing a tantrum, and while I spoke with her about, he came toward me, got in my face and started yelling at me. This happened at a family event. Honestly, we lived together because we wanted our kids to still have us around. But after this event, I realized that it has to end. We need to go our separate ways. He says I am exaggerating, but my daughter cried and said she thought he was going to hit me. Plus, living with someone who you don't communicate with, specially after you shared so much together and had two kids is stressful, provokes me incredible anxiety and it is depressing at time.

    The bottom line is that I don't even know where to begin. I don't know how I should leave. The house we live in is under his name and my fathers, as he cosigned for us. My name is not on the title. However, I have always worked and contributed financially to the household. I am just absolutely clueless, I don't know how to proceed. I feel paralyzed. One thing I know for sure is that in no way, shape or form do I want to be unfair.

    The bottom line is that he is the father of my kids, and as such I love him and wish him the ABSOLUTE best. I am sad that things couldn't work out, but I have suffered a lot. He was never aggressive, and what happened I know was an isolated event, but I don't want to stay any longer. I am just done. My daughter is 10, and she doesn't deserve to be around this example. We all deserve better. But I am just soooo lost, but motivated and optimistic for the future. (For now at least, I know nothing is a smooth ride).

    Please help. Any advise is appreciated. 

    I want you to know I recognize from my own experience just how hard it is to move on. When I look back on my own life, I too did not want to be unfair. But in being so focused on not be unfair, I was really unfair to myself. Get professional support, and get a good lawyer for yourself to help you sort out the complicated economics. I did not get a lawyer. I regret that several years later. Your choices now will make a big difference in the years to come even though that might be hard to see now. Make sure to be fair to yourself, not just to your children's father.

    What a challenging situation! While my situation wasn't entirely like yours, there are several aspects that did ring true which I want to offer my perspective. My first piece of advice is to stop trying to be fair to your children's father. While it would be lovely if you two could separate harmoniously and happily co-parent together, your description of your circumstances makes it unlikely that will be the outcome. It's more likely that things will escalate and become contentious. Rather than try and be fair, put your energy into protecting yourself as much as possible. Like you, I was DONE with my relationship. My ex did not feel the same and wanted to continue to live in the same house. The transition was awful and I felt like emotionally I was ready to move forward, but my life was stagnant due to my ex refusing to leave. I tried therapy with him and tried to help him, but he refused to accept that one of us needed to find a new place to live. It ended with him being violent for the first time. It took a restraining order to get him out of the house. He has so much anger towards me, even now that he is well established in a new relationship that provides him financial and housing security (and he was never charged with DV due to lack of evidence). Throughout it all, I tried to be kind to him. I gave him money to get re-established and I went out of my way to ensure he had access to his children, but he was angry that I ended the relationship. All the kindness in the world couldn't stop the hurt he felt which manifested into anger and revenge. Even years later, he goes out of his way to upset me and create conflict. While that may not be your outcome, I repeat my advice to protect yourself first. If you can help him after you are established and ok, then great. But, fairness won't get you far if things get ugly. Trust your instincts and prioritize protecting yourself and your kids. Good luck!

    I separated from my husband and father of my son 6 years ago, for way bigger reasons than yours, and it is INCREDIBLY hard on everyone - even though we live near each other, are friendly, socialize sometimes and are mutually supportive. It is financially brutal on both of us. As my son gets older, he's ever more saddened by the situation as his awareness grows. We have an okay daily life, but behind the scenes there's a ton of pain.

    In short, you do not IMO owe it to your kids to leave their father - you owe it to them AND to you and your partner to get to therapy immediately and do everything to save this marriage! Your life will *not* be better without him. I know many divorced people and they will agree - it will be different, some pain will evaporate - but you'll have new pains and challenges. It will NOT be better, just different. And your children will suffer way more than they are now, for life.

    To me, you sound depressed. This is understandable, but see a therapist and figure this out on your own! Then get a marriage counselor and hear what your husband has to say! Sleeping apart is a symptom that can be cured. And it sure does not help daily affection and peace to be living like this. 

    Don't look back with regret - act right now and give it 200% effort to solve this situation, starting with yourself - what can you do to improve things before tearing apart a family?

    Older and Wiser

    How to move on? Go to a lawyer, it is actually pretty easy to move on once the finances get straightened out by a professional. I have been happily divorced for over 10 years. I have 100% legal and physical custody of our daughter although my ex can visit whenever he wants (this worked better for his erratic work schedule and gives more stability for our daughter to just live in one place). You will probably feel a mix of relief and sadness for about a year, then the "new normal" will be better. Good Luck!

    If I were in your shoes, the first thing I would do is consult with a leader at my church (I attend a non-denominational Christian church). This a spiritually and emotionally delicate situation for you and everyone else involved. While finances are a crucial thing to manage during a time like this, it's important to keep 'self' intact and ensure a peaceable 'exit'. The church could also connect you with members in the church who have dealt with similar situations or a support group, not to mention an attorney who could assist in the legal/financial area.

    Have you tried marital counseling? If he is not interested in attending I suggest you attend for yourself so you can get professional guidance and support through this difficult time. 

    You have gotten a lot of good responses but I would like to emphasize that you should NOT listen to anyone who tells you definitely that your life will be better or worse with a divorce, as one responder has done.  People who judge your situation in this way are projecting their own emotions and have their own agendas.  Yes there are trade-offs and everything in life is not rosy or peachy in any circumstance but you sound like a thoughtful, competent person who I trust to make the best decisions you can with the information you have at the time.  While I left my seemingly "ideal" life and initiated what turned into a high-conflict divorce due to my ex's anger, my life, even with its tradeoffs, is better now.  And though I live with guilt over what I did to my children and sadness at times as my ex is getting married this month and I know that's impacting them, they are both doing well, with good grades, friends, and an easy flow between both of our houses.  

    Hang in there.   I'm glad you reached out here.  I know exactly ZERO people IRL locally who have gone through a divorce and navigated it solely on my own.  That's unnecessarily isolating.  Xoxo.

    My marriage ended when my daughter was 5 years old and that was 20 years ago.  At the time we had been working hard to stay together since she was 2 years old.  

    The other posters are right; do what you can to set yourself up financially, housing-wise, and custody-wise.  In CA, most family court judges give 50/50 custody to both parents.  Get your parents in on it to be in your corner.  It is good that your father is on the title if he is supportive of you.  Go to the free "Lawyers in the Library" to start asking for advice.

    You may be surprised at how angry your ex may get if you are entitled to any kind of support (child or spousal).  It depends on the disparity between your incomes if you get 50/50 custody.  Get copies of his credit reports so you can see if there are any "hidden" credit cards that he has maxed out.  Get copies of statements from all financial institutions.  Get copies of all your & his past tax returns.  His debt is half your debt, according to the law.  

    Creating financial separation is often the first legal step before or after filing for divorce if he has problems with money.

    Hopefully it will be smooth sailing, but don't bury your head in the sand and hope for the best.  At least find out how it all works.

    Even though I went through a few years of sadness & self evaluation, it was worth it to not be stuck in a relationship that hadn't been working for several years.  It is great that you are looking forward with optimism!!  

    Sounds like you have a tough situation.  A lawyer can answer most of your questions and you'll need to hire one eventually anyway.  Might as well start now.  Best wishes!

    This is a community property state. See a lawyer to get your fair share of what you have built together.

    Having separated from my husband a year ago, I can definitely relate to your post.  I think everyone else here has given you great advice, but I wanted to chime in with one thing I felt was incredibly helpful as we navigated the actual "separating" of finances, home, custody, etc:

    When in any kind of negotiation with your ex-spouse, say yes as often as you feel comfortable.  But if the answer is no, ask to get back to him later.  I frequently found that if I got out of the tense situation and had time to roll the issue around in my brain, I was able to come up with a more nuanced way to get what I wanted without just immediately saying a definitive no.  And if a couple days later the answer was still "no," I would be able to express it more clearly and kindly than in the original moment the issue was raised. 

    Ultimately, YOU will get more of what you want because every negotiation won't feel like a land-grab where you just try to prevent the other from getting what they want.  I wanted our separation due to a huge betrayal, and a year later I feel proud of our ability to remain kind, generous and communicative.  Not that we don't still have the occasional irrational screaming fit, but hey, that's a great reminder of why you aren't still with that person!!

Archived Q&A and Reviews


Questions

Considering divorce, how do you even begin?

April 2015

I've been contemplating divorce for about a year now. It's not easy, we have two kids, a house, generally a good life. but we are completely different people now, there's no love left, only resentment and blame.. I don't see how this could get better. At any rate, i don't even know what steps to take, how does one find an attorney? could I just go in for a confidential consultation? if anyone has recommendations or advice, i'd be grateful. thanks. Anon


Dear Anon - Try reading through this: http://www.courts.ca.gov/selfhelp.htm?genpubtab Then, in this link http://www.courts.ca.gov/1241.htm you can explore how to find an attorney to get legal advice on your particular situation. Good luck! Anon


I recommend that you do some online reading first to think more about what you want in a divorce. There are some great resources out there - NOLO do-your-own-divorce (great tips even if you don't want to do it yourself), the Divorce As Friends website, etc. Also you don't have to have a lawyer unless things are contentious or super complicated. Check out Divorce With Dignity - we used Cindy Elwell and she was great. We used the NOLO stuff to figure out a lot of questions in advance and waited until things cooled down to file official paperwork, and it was affordable (maybe $1,000 or so?) and amicable. Also once you've decided, I recommend the Co-Parenting 101 book and website for support on how to do the best for your kids. It was all super helpful for me. Best of luck to you! good divorce is possible


Divorce generally creates misery for children, and it usually scars them for life. That may sound dramatic, but from their point of view, it is bad stuff. Have you tried therapy? Do you realize that whatever lack of help you both resent now, it will all be more work when you divorce? Whatever money problems you have now will get worse? Why give money to lawyers? Instead, as hard as it may be, try to thank your spouse and compliment your spouse every day. If your spouse tries to start a fight, just don't engage. Stop criticizing your spouse. I believe you can find a way. Tell your spouse that you are turning over a new leaf, and then do it. Anon


Therapy. For you. If you're having trouble deciding, it can make all the difference to have someone rational and impartial to help you think it all through. And then if you decide to do it, having that person as support can be so helpful.

*IF* you decide to pursue divorce, you might want to read up on options before talking to an attorney - lots of people in California go with mediation as a cheaper/more amicable option, but I hear it can be harder to back things down a notch to mediation after you've already started talking to someone about litigation.

I highly recommend the ''divorce options'' workshop put on by the East Bay Center for Collaborative Divorce - they have one of each type of expert (financial, mental health, and legal) there to explain the whole range of options. - Spent years trying to decide before trying therapy


Taking the first step toward divorce

August 2003

My marriage is nearing its end, but I seem to be unable to take the first real step towards getting a divorce. Im hoping someone can provide some advice on the steps to take to get out.

For background we will be married 5 years in October, we have a 10 month old son. I work part time (at a job I love), but do not make enough money to live on my own in the Bay Area. I have looked for full time work without success.

My husband struggles with chemical dependency issues (alcohol and marijuana), and consequently tends to be irrational, paranoid and mean. Without his knowledge I met with a divorce attorney 6 months ago after he shoved me. Her advice then was based on a fear of more abuse (which I don't honestly have now). I didn't act because suddenly things improved considerably, and truthfully I wasn't ready to take off with a 4 month old.

Lately my husband threatens to divorce me on regular basis, but never follows through. I think we both know we can't go on like this, but are afraid to give up the good things the other contributes to the marriage.

I suspect the easiest thing would be for me to move out, but I would like to keep our house, which I owned before we married (its in both of names now), and again, I dont think I could afford to live on my own before a settlement is reached. Also my husband loves our son tremendously, and has threatened to try for full custody. While Im confident tht won't happen, I don't think he'd let me take him without a bitter fight.

If rational conversations were possible, I'd probably still be trying to save the marriage, so having a straightforward discussion about the situation is not option.

Can anyone provide some guidance on how to get the ball rolling? Is it possible me to file while we're still living together, and if so under the circumstances would that just be stupid? Is there any way (short of experiencing more physical abuse) to force him to leave?

Clearly Im terrified about my ability to start a new life. Im hoping that hearing some of your experiences will give me the confidence I need to get moving. Thanks


I believe that you can get a summary dissolution, and avoid a fair bit of the paperwork, etc., if your marriage lasted five years or less. If you've tried counseling and so forth, or you're fairly sure that divorce is what you need regardless, that time frame might provide some ''incentive'' to act fairly soon. You are certainly strong enough to do this, no matter how scary it seems!

If you need someone to talk to, email me anytime. I can't tell you to get divorced, and I can't tell you to stay together - but I CAN tell you that you have the courage and strength to do what's best for you and your child, no matter how hard it may be. That's why you wrote your post in the first place, after all. Good luck! Kathleen


I want to say that I think that you should seek further legal cousel before you do anything- you are at a different place now than 6 mos ago, and you have at least 3 pressing issues to deal with: your son's welfare and custody, your home, and your fear of your husband.

Since you owned your home before your marriage, and your finances are strained, I would like to see you regain full ownership of your home to expand your options. You can do this if your husband will sign a ''quit claim'' deed relinquishing his share of ownership in the property.

It doesn't sound like he will do this easily, but perhaps you have some leverage in his drug and alcohol problems. Clearly, this has to be approached very carefully since he is unstable.

I think that an effective approach, taken with the advice and help of an attorney only, might be simply to put it in terms that you won't dispute his right to joint custody, in spite of his substance abuse problems, if he will sign the quit claim. This puts a bit of a positive slant on it since you are offering him something he wants- equal parental rights for his son- in return for something you want- your home (which I think is rightfully, if not legally, yours). I think that this could be done without presenting it as an attack.

The fly in the ointment would be if he has something to hold up against you that would endanger your own right to custody of your son.

Don't move out- it sounds like you'd never get your home back- unless an attorney tells you to do so for your own safety. Your safety has to come first. But since this is a very emotional situation for you, you could use some help sorting out your fears, which right now are all mushed together. The right therapist or counselor can help you with reality checks as to whether you are either exaggerating or minimizing your husband's potential for violence because of your other fears.

My experience with 2 past marijuana-addicted boyfriends is that they threaten much more than they actually do, I think because marijuana reduces motivation and the ability to act. But the threats can be pretty awful to have thrown at you. If there is anyone whose support you can enlist, like someone in his own family who he respects, that could help you. Just try and be rational yourself, don't trash him, and don't throw threats back- that will escalate everything and you will feel guilty later. Best of luck, anon


It is terrifying to contemplate divorce, but it sounds like you are being very rational about the whole thing and are making some good decisions! I went through a similar situation some months ago, and here are the words I remember using that got the ball rolling: ''I'm sad that things between us can't work out, and let's try to think about how to make this split manageable for you.'' (Or something like that..) The key to all conversations was to make sure to give control to the ex, bring my feelings in (because they are inarguable...he can't tell me I'm not sad, if I say I am, then I am!), and let him feel like he was somehow ''more right'' about everything (even if I didn't think so). Also, start your new life now! Find child care and start your baby in it, expand or change your job situation so that you can meet your needs without him. As far as getting him to move out, be patient, but try to set a time limit. Say something like ''when do you think you would be able to find a new place to stay'' or ''where do you think you might like to go''. Just try to be deliberate and logical about the whole thing. Have little goals for each conversation: ''now we're going to figure out where you'll live'' ''now we're going to figure out what will happen with the house''. Finally, try to only have these conversations when you both are sober. Be strong!